OT: Oldest Christian Books allegedly Found In A Jordanian Cave

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This post has 79 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 498
Greg | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Mar 30 2011 7:19 AM

Supposedly Christian in origin and supposedly from the 1st century which supposedly mentions Jesus' crucifixion!

Jordan battles to regain 'priceless' Christian relics

Could this be the biggest find since the Dead Sea Scrolls? Seventy metal books found in cave in Jordan could change our view of Biblical history

Biblical scholars excited by ‘books’ discovered in Jordanian cave

Pretty exciting!

I wonder when these will show up on Pre-pub?  Big Smile

Posts 995
Richard Wardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 30 2011 7:26 AM

Greg Masone:
I wonder when these will show up on Pre-pub?  Big Smile

Yes

Posts 308
James W Bennett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 6:22 AM

Greg Masone:
Pretty exciting!

This will be exciting if they are not forgeries.

Greg Masone:
Supposedly Christian in origin and supposedly from the 1st century which supposedly mentions Jesus' crucifixion!

They have not been translated yet.  Pretty much all anyone has said about content is that they are in Hebrew and written in a "code." Some people have presumed they are Christian on VERY dubious grounds. The only reasons that I have seen for assigning a Christian context to these are:

  1. There is a picture of a Menorah and Jews were forbidden to depict the Menorah because it belonged in the Holy of Holies.
  2. They are books and Christians like books.

Point 1 is blatantly false. We have Menorah depictions in 1st and 3rd C Synagogues and in the Jewish Catacombs of Rome in the 2nd and 3rd C. And these are just the ones I know without any further research.

Point 2 is only partially true. Yes, Christian liked books. But, that statement more properly refers to the Codex which really gets started in use in the 3rd-4th C. It was not all that uncommon to have writing on tablets as far back as Sumer. And these are more like bound tablets than a codex. Notice in the pictures that they are bound on all sides. Once we get past the idea that they are codices, heavenly books (scrolls and tablets) figured prominently in both Jewish and Christian writings. We even have a 1st C picture of a Codex at Pompeii.

Here are some Logos resources for research:

logosres:aehl;hw=Beth-Yerah;off=506

logosres:bav006;art=bav006.art.2;off=29

logosres:aehl;hw=Burial;off=14975

logosres:anch;hw=Codex

logosres:anch;hw=Writing_and_Writing_Materials

logosres:bkrencbib;ref=Page.p_2167;off=4958

logosres:hrmneiaench1;ref=Page.p_478;off=3060

logosres:bav006;art=bav006.art.2;off=29

 

 

---

James W Bennett

http://syriac.tara-lu.com/

Posts 8608
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 6:27 AM

James W Bennett:
They have not been translated yet.  Pretty much all anyone has said about content is that they are in Hebrew and written in a "code." Some people have presumed they are Christian on VERY dubious grounds. The only reasons that I have seen for assigning a Christian context to these are:
 I appreciate the common sense here James, it seems every time something like this occurs - reason is abandoned.  I've officially adopted my "wait and see" attitude on this one.  Let's get it translated, than let's see if we should get excited.

How foolish will all of this look if it turns out to be a cookbook? (Ok, not very likely but seriously consider the implications.)

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

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Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 6:38 AM

Thomas Black:
if it turns out to be a cookbook?

Then what is for dinner?  I am looking to try something new.

Posts 1680
Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 6:41 AM

I questioned the comparison to the Dead Sea Scrolls which contain a lot of written material whereas these were the size of a credit card.  I also was humored by the statement that they might contain some key to understanding the book of Revelation or other Christian belief or writing.  All that aside they could be an important discovery if their dating is correct.

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

Posts 8608
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 6:45 AM

tom collinge:

Thomas Black:
if it turns out to be a cookbook?

Then what is for dinner?  I am looking to try something new.

Probably an commentary on Num 11:7-8.

Now the manna was like coriander seed, and its appearance like that of bdellium. The people would go about and gather it and grind it between two millstones or beat it in the mortar, and boil it in the pot and make cakes with it; and its taste was as the taste of cakes baked with oil. ” (Numbers 11:7–8, NASB95)

As a cookbook I would expect recipes for such classics as

  • Mannana cream pie
  • Mannanaise
  • Mannana's and cream
  • Peanut Butter and Mannana sandwiches (Made with unleavened bread of course.)

Who knows what culinary masterpieces are next?!

 

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

Posts 797
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 7:44 AM

Just don't use today's manna mañana.

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

Posts 1646
SteveF | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 8:16 AM

Thomas Black:

  • Mannana cream pie
  • Mannanaise
  • Mannana's and cream
  • Peanut Butter and Mannana sandwiches (Made with unleavened bread of course.)
  • Dear Thomas:

    I am so relieved that my mouth was not full of coffee as I read that this morning! Smile

     

    Regards, SteveF

    Posts 15805
    Forum MVP
    Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 8:44 AM

    Thomas Black:

    As a cookbook I would expect recipes for such classics as

    • Mannana cream pie
    • Mannanaise
    • Mannana's and cream
    • Peanut Butter and Mannana sandwiches (Made with unleavened bread of course.)

    Who knows what culinary masterpieces are next?!

    • Fudge & Mannana custard pie
    • My Mannana Gourmet popcorn
    • Golden Mannana preserves

    Searching Logos entire library for manna includes topic look up:

    MANNA  The food eaten by the Children of Israel in the desert (Exod. 16:14–31,etc.), described in the Bible as ‘small as the hoar frost . . .  and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey . . .  and the color thereof as the colour of bdellium [i.e. rock-crystal, cf. Num. 11:7–8]. And the people went about and gathered it, and ground it in mills, or beat it in a mortar, and baked it in pans, and made cakes of it; and the taste of it was of fresh oil.’

    There have been many theories to explain this phenomenon. According to one of the most recent it is the secretion of certain tamarisk bushes, Tamarix manifera, Ehr., and occurs when the bush is attacked by the Cocidae, an insect found in the Sinai desert. The secretion has a rough surface and is white at first, changing later to a yellowish-brown color. It becomes sweet, like honey, when kept for a long time. The local Bedouins call it ‘manna of heaven’. They collect it very early in the morning, before the ants wake after the chill of the night, and very quickly, before it melts in the hot morning sun (cf. Exod. 16:21). They store it in tightly closed vessels to protect it from ants and prevent it becoming infested with worms (cf. Exod. 16:20). In the rainy season a Bedouin can collect about 3 lbs in one morning. They cook it into a porridge, which keeps for a long time. The preservation of the name manna in Arabic may be taken as a proof of the accuracy of this supposition.

     

    Negev, A. (1996). The Archaeological encyclopedia of the Holy Land (3rd ed.). New York: Prentice Hall Press.

     

    Keep Smiling Smile

    Posts 8608
    TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 8:46 AM

    SteveF:
    I am so relieved that my mouth was not full of coffee as I read that this morning!

    Coffee Spew

    My work here is done.

    Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

    Check the Wiki

    Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

    Posts 3688
    Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 8:49 AM

    Greg Masone:
    I wonder when these will show up on Pre-pub?  Big Smile
     

    I am wondering why they would put these in PrePub?  They are certainly in the public domain and given the comments being made, there is some question on the amount of interest we would have in them.  I suggest that they go into Community Pricing - being lead (not gold) they should go fairly cheap.Wink

    Blessings,
    Floyd

    Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

    Posts 1228
    Ron | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 9:19 AM

    Thomas Black:

    tom collinge:

    Thomas Black:
    if it turns out to be a cookbook?

    Then what is for dinner?  I am looking to try something new.

    Probably an commentary on Num 11:7-8.

    Now the manna was like coriander seed, and its appearance like that of bdellium. The people would go about and gather it and grind it between two millstones or beat it in the mortar, and boil it in the pot and make cakes with it; and its taste was as the taste of cakes baked with oil. ” (Numbers 11:7–8, NASB95)

    As a cookbook I would expect recipes for such classics as

     

    • Mannana cream pie
    • Mannanaise
    • Mannana's and cream
    • Peanut Butter and Mannana sandwiches (Made with unleavened bread of course.)

     

    Who knows what culinary masterpieces are next?!

     

    Manna-cotti Stick out tongue

    Posts 715
    Jerry Bush | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 10:35 AM

    Thomas Black:

    How foolish will all of this look if it turns out to be a cookbook? (Ok, not very likely but seriously consider the implications.)

    That was a good episode of the Twilight Zone. One of my favorite surprise endings!

    Jerry

    iMac (2019 model), 3Ghz 6 Core Intel i5, 16gb Ram, Radeon Pro Graphics. 500GB SSD.

    Posts 8608
    TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 10:47 AM

    Ron Keyston Jr:
    Manna-cotti
     HAHAHAHA

    Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

    Check the Wiki

    Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

    Posts 74
    James Ogle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 11:13 AM

    Jerry Bush:

    Thomas Black:

    How foolish will all of this look if it turns out to be a cookbook? (Ok, not very likely but seriously consider the implications.)

    That was a good episode of the Twilight Zone. One of my favorite surprise endings!

    Jerry

     

    That's the first thing I thought of too when cookbook was mentioned!

     

     

    Posts 2392
    Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 11:24 AM

    Thomas Black:
    How foolish will all of this look if it turns out to be a cookbook?

    Reminds me of the old Twilight Zone episode where a book given to the human race with the title "To Serve Man" is a cook book.

    Posts 18867
    Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 12:53 PM

    Thomas Black:
    James W Bennett:
    They have not been translated yet.  Pretty much all anyone has said about content is that they are in Hebrew and written in a "code." Some people have presumed they are Christian on VERY dubious grounds. The only reasons that I have seen for assigning a Christian context to these are:
     I appreciate the common sense here James, it seems every time something like this occurs - reason is abandoned.  I've officially adopted my "wait and see" attitude on this one.  Let's get it translated, than let's see if we should get excited.

    Yes, I think it's too soon to get all excited about these. Remember the "Jesus' brother James" ossuary forgery? I'm going to wait until trusted scholars weigh in on this and won't get swept away by the wildly exciting media headlines like "Could lead codices prove ‘the major discovery of Christian history’?"

    Larry Hurtado has a good blog post on this: http://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2011/03/29/more-on-the-lead-codices/

    (Hurtado is a scholar of the New Testament and Christian origins, currently Professor of New Testament Language, Literature & Theology at the University of Edinburgh.)

    Posts 10731
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    Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 1:16 PM

    Rosie Perera:

    Thank you very much for that link. That was a superb evaluation of the situation. Yes

    However, I still enjoyed the cookbook discussion. Geeked

    Posts 2392
    Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2011 1:37 PM

    I had a chance to hear Larry Hurtado speak about a year ago in Kansas City, Missouri.  Very Good.

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