Honest opinions......is Logos going to get better for Mac, is it worth holding out a bit longer?

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Posts 248
Daniel Arnott | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Apr 3 2011 12:42 PM

Firstly let me say I love the "concept" of Logos. I also use a Mac because it is quick. I know it has been discussed many a time but is Logos going to improve significantly in the speed department? At the moment I don't use it as it always crashes, hangs etc... It's been a good thing in a way because it has meant I have had to read paper books! It's a shame as well because I would love to be using Logos on a daily basis but it is so unstable and slow that it becomes a major frustration. I know at the moment the developers don't seem to be able to work out why it runs so poorly on the mac, but do they expect there to be SIGNIFICANT improvements? I'm not talking about the odd tweak to scrolling now and again but the sort of speed one expects and actually demands from such an expensive application. I fear that the answer is "we don't know", I'm not a programmer but from what I gather Logos is not a native Mac app. I just feel that the developers need to be more open and honest and let us know whether or not it is worth investing more time and money with Logos. And by the way, upgrading to a new Mac is not the answer I am looking for! :-)

 

Dan

Posts 316
Luuk Dondorp | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 12:54 PM

I am using L4 for Mac on my MacBook Pro from 2008 without any problems, crashes and hangings. It never did. It just works fine. I went all the way from the beginning with alpha's and beta's and now I am using the latest stable version. I never experienced any crash. I am very satisfied.

Luuk

 

Posts 230
Pastor James | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 1:01 PM

I'm somewhere in the middle. Logos is stable enough to use on my Mac. It is fast enough (but not great, Logos searches are 4 times faster on a PC), it crashes some, but not often, and hangs, sometimes but not often.

In fact Logos works as well as most Windows applications that drove me to the Mac world in the first place.

For me Logos for Mac is usable and marginally acceptable.

Posts 248
Daniel Arnott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 1:09 PM

you have never had a crash???? or a hang?????

Posts 1363
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 1:09 PM

I've also been using since the earliest beta. Generally I'm quite pleased, though I do wish for some optimizations. I expect it to get significantly better.

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

Posts 646
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 1:14 PM

Daniel Arnott:

Firstly let me say I love the "concept" of Logos. I also use a Mac because it is quick. I know it has been discussed many a time but is Logos going to improve significantly in the speed department? At the moment I don't use it as it always crashes, hangs etc... It's been a good thing in a way because it has meant I have had to read paper books! It's a shame as well because I would love to be using Logos on a daily basis but it is so unstable and slow that it becomes a major frustration. I know at the moment the developers don't seem to be able to work out why it runs so poorly on the mac, but do they expect there to be SIGNIFICANT improvements? I'm not talking about the odd tweak to scrolling now and again but the sort of speed one expects and actually demands from such an expensive application. I fear that the answer is "we don't know", I'm not a programmer but from what I gather Logos is not a native Mac app. I just feel that the developers need to be more open and honest and let us know whether or not it is worth investing more time and money with Logos. And by the way, upgrading to a new Mac is not the answer I am looking for! :-)

 

Dan

What are the specs on your computer?

I have been using Logos 4 Mac the past year. The speed has slowly improved. I doubt we will see any big changes soon or else we would already be experiencing them. Logos would have given them to us. I just don't think you are going to find many programs that are as big as Logos that perform as quickly as you would like. If Logos crashes or hangs, that is unusual. I bet the posters will be able to figure out the issues if you communicate with them.

 

Posts 248
Daniel Arnott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 1:19 PM

Hi Jeremy

Sometimes its not so much crashing thats a problem. Speed and the beach ball are the main frustration. Once the program wakes up it's ok. I understand the size of Logos but in all honesty am a little fed up with that being an excuse for general poor performance. I know that hardware dosn't appear to play as big a part in this as it may seem. Some poster here have very high spec Macs that still perform poorly so I won't get into splitting hairs over hardware. My Mac is more than capable. It is fairly clear from the many many posts on this site that the software is flawed or poorly written. I want to stick with Logos if I know for sure that things will get significantly better. I guess the only people that can answer this are the developers. Are they happy with the way it is going at the moment? Can they give us a reason to stick with Logos?

Posts 248
Daniel Arnott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 1:22 PM

oh and by the way I am not trying to cause trouble. I'm just at a decision point with this software and value others opinions. I've had it for over a year now and have spent more time on this forum than in the software. 

Posts 646
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 1:55 PM

Daniel Arnott:
It is fairly clear from the many many posts on this site that the software is flawed or poorly written. I want to stick with Logos if I know for sure that things will get significantly better.

It's not poorly written. But I still would like to know if you have at least 4 GB of RAM? Are you using a beta? I don't remember any posts you made even though you have over 150 posts, but are you reporting crashes or sticking to the forum so that you can receive help?

I bet the developers are fairly happy. They work hard and have a balanced view of what to expect. The reason to stick with Logos is because they have great customer service. They have functions that no other Bible software has (syntactical searching of the entire OT). They have more books than any other software. And they are constantly and quickly fixing the problems.

 

Posts 2249
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 3:55 PM

I do see significant improvements in Logos 4 Mac already. I do think it's still a work in progress. I recently was able to do a small upgrade to my PC and so I get better performance on it than my current Mac. I think if your hardware is good, there's no reason why you shouldn't go with L4M. 

The overall roadmap for L4 is proof that patience is rewarded. I had some doubts until the latest stable release. I'm delighted with my investment. I'm going to need a computer upgrade at some point, but Logos is more than worth it. 

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 201
Garrett Ho | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 4:47 PM

If it is unstable and slow for you, I'd try to find out how you can optimize it on your computer. Perhaps you have other memory intensive programs running, or there are other simple solutions.

I run L4M on a first-gen macbook, and it runs rock solid. I haven't had a crash in at least six months. I've been using the mac version since the beginning, and I don't think there is any reason at all to doubt the future of Logos on the mac.

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 6:46 PM

I've used Logos 4 Mac since it was Libronix 1 Mac. :) IMO L4 has come a long way, but it still has a long way to go. I don't hit hangs and crashes very often, but a number of performance issues remain (notes, clippings stand out here, still some issues with passage lists). There also remain some significant issues with printing and exporting and a few other odds and ends. 

L4 Mac is good enough for what I have to do. I don't really have to fire up my VM all the time, and on my 2008 Macbook Pro I rarely ever use the VM. But on my office iMac I usually use Logos from the VM. The performance is just better.

Daniel Arnott:
from what I gather Logos is not a native Mac app.

Sort of yes, sort of no. Generally when you speak of a native program you mean a program compiled on/for the target machine rather than running the program through some sort of emulator. In that sense, L4 Mac is a native app - it is compiled on the Mac using libraries designed for OS X (and for other OS's). Some people say it is not native since the bulk of the backend code is written in .NET originally for the PC. It is being compiled on the Mac using the Mono libraries. So it is written using code originally designed for Windows systems, but it is being built using code that runs native on the Mac, so it is a native Mac app. That said, I don't know just how polished the Mono libraries are, and I suspect some of the performance issues come from there. But Mono is an open source project, so Logos devs can (and have - frequently, I believe) offer their own patches to Mono, making it a better project.

As for the future, Logos will keep improving. I still cringe a little when I see new features on the Mac version - not because I don't want new features, but because there will always be something new, and time spent on new features means less time spent improving and fixing existing features. But the program has come a long way, and it will continue to show improvement. 

L4 Mac is now in a new beta cycle. The first beta has lots of bugs, but bugs of a nature that make me suspect that devs are digging into some of those areas that need improvement, so I'm cautiously optimistic that some of those big fixes may be popping up in the near future. For beta users, at least.

Posts 25
Joshua | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 6:54 PM

Luuk Dondorp:

I am using L4 for Mac on my MacBook Pro from 2008 without any problems, crashes and hangings. It never did. It just works fine. I went all the way from the beginning with alpha's and beta's and now I am using the latest stable version. I never experienced any crash. I am very satisfied.

I find this incredibly hard to believe. What functions do you use? Have you ever done word searches or typed notes in the program? What edition do you have (Languages, Scholar, etc)?

I have a 2009 2 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo Macbook Aluminium Body with 2 GB Ram and Logos Languages Edition constantly crashes, freezes, operates slowly. I have only used a "stable" version.

I hope it gets better, but even with the constant crashes and features not working, the program is still invaluable to me with my current college course work.

I would only recommend it if you absolutely need it for studies. Otherwise, wait until the bugs are worked out or buy another program.

 

 

 

 

Posts 10
Chris Giammona | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 9:07 PM

When I use Logos 4 on my iMac it is really slow and not very efficient.  I know that you stated that you do not want ot hear about buying new hardware, but I bought a new Macbook Air, do not load it up with extraneous applications, and Logos runs very fast, does not crash, and I am very pleased - but it came at the price of a new machine.

 

Chris

Posts 59
Todd White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 3 2011 10:32 PM

Daniel Arnott:

Firstly let me say I love the "concept" of Logos. I also use a Mac because it is quick. I know it has been discussed many a time but is Logos going to improve significantly in the speed department? At the moment I don't use it as it always crashes, hangs etc... It's been a good thing in a way because it has meant I have had to read paper books! It's a shame as well because I would love to be using Logos on a daily basis but it is so unstable and slow that it becomes a major frustration. I know at the moment the developers don't seem to be able to work out why it runs so poorly on the mac, but do they expect there to be SIGNIFICANT improvements? I'm not talking about the odd tweak to scrolling now and again but the sort of speed one expects and actually demands from such an expensive application. I fear that the answer is "we don't know", I'm not a programmer but from what I gather Logos is not a native Mac app. I just feel that the developers need to be more open and honest and let us know whether or not it is worth investing more time and money with Logos. And by the way, upgrading to a new Mac is not the answer I am looking for! :-)

Dan

Daniel,

I'm sorry you are having troubles with the app. We are constantly working on improving the performance and stability of the Mac product. If you are running a beta version it can be a little bit rougher of a ride. During beta we try out different things for performance gains that sometimes cause unforeseen stability issues on users hardware. We can't guarantee any numbers, but in the 4.3 beta we are trying several things to get the significant improvements that you are looking for, so if you don't mind a possible rough ride I suggest you give it a try.

On the technical side the UI is all native Cocoa and Objective-C. We often do know what the problem is, but some changes are risky while others are just time consuming.

Daniel Arnott:

oh and by the way I am not trying to cause trouble. I'm just at a decision point with this software and value others opinions. I've had it for over a year now and have spent more time on this forum than in the software.

We appreciate your patience over this last year.

Finally, if you are getting constant crashes posting your logs here can help us to continue to make it better.

-Todd

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 4 2011 12:01 AM

Hardware bias: looking forward to iMac and Mac Mini model refreshes later this year; hope to replace 2008 model Windows laptop with Apple hardware that has 2nd generation Intel Core i5 or i7, ideally with enough resources to run Logos 4 Mac and some virtual machines.  Last year sold 27" iMac with 2.8 GHz Quad Core i7, which was noticeably faster than 20" iMac with 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo for all software, including Logos 4 Mac.  Also reading good things about Mac OS X 10.7 Lion, which should ship in few months.

Logos 4 => Common Experience on Mac & PC includes "Logos 4 is resource intensive on Mac & PC – benefits from fast processor, graphics, and disk along with adequate memory (i.e. newer hardware since Logos 4 being designed for use over 5 to 8 years)."  Thankful Logos 4 has a common experience on Mac & PC; most features act the same so easy to switch platforms and sync information.  Many Logos 4 PC users have answered Logos 4 Mac forum questions.

What to Expect includes "Three Logos 4 Mac menus do not follow historic Mac conventions: FileGuides, and Layouts - recommend quick click to display menu (may take seconds to display), then can right OR left click on menu items."  For human interaction, wish all Logos 4 menus on Mac & PC would consistently display in less than a second.

Feature Parity has list of Logos 4.2a PC features not yet completely implemented in Logos 4.2a on Mac.  Notes listed first because PC has better capabilities than Mac.  Some Logos forum users edit Notes using Logos 4 on PC, then sync their Notes to Mac.  Other Logos forum users with lots of Notes use older Libronix 3 (peacefully coexist with Logos 4; can import Notes to Logos 4).

A few things I have noticed (Daniel Arnott Posted: 24 Jan 2011 10:55 PM) had 5 items (responses below):

1) Notes needs many improvements on Mac & PC.  Please vote for User Voice Rework notes function - in one or multiple phases (currently # 14, needs 23 more votes to move up on front page list).

2) Clicking on Bible cover on Logos 4.2a Mac Home Page opens Bible to last reading location (issue fixed).

3) Layout load time varies based on number of panels being opened plus what is being opened in each panel.  If layout includes Exegetical Guide Word by Word section with All words for a Bible chapter, loading takes long time (on Mac & PC). Mac Slow Performance includes link to Logos Running Slowly (with usage tips).  Also Learning Logos links to Camp Logos Schedule, which has a follow-up reply Re: Camp Logos London about reducing number of open panels in Layouts, which is faster to load on Mac & PC.  Learning Logos also links to Excellent Unofficial Logos 4 Training Videos with Logos Tutorial Video #14 – Layouts

By the way, instead of sluggish Word by Word report in New Testament, personally prefer Greek interlinear: display manuscript and Louw-Nida # so hovering on Louw-Nida # shows contextual range of word meaning in a pop-up (can right click on word for many Word by Word items).  Forum http://community.logos.com/forums/p/31253/232122.aspx#232122 has a Logos Greek Morphology visual filter example with different highlighting for every verbal mood that can be used with Logos 4 reverse interlinear Bibles.  Thankful Logos 4.2a on Mac printing includes visual highlighting => ReWill there be a way to Print Visual Mark-Up (Highlight of Bibles or Resources)  After initial load of Bible resources with visual filter highlighting, scrolling performs nicely on Mac & PC (using 2007 model Mac and 2008 model Windows laptop).

4) File Menu can filter items.  Screen capture shows Her filtering in File Menu using Logos 4.2a SR-3.  Also shows Herod Agrippa II visual filter additions in Bible text: Acts 25 & 26 plus Herod visual filter definitions, which were created after reading Visual Filter for Herod forum post:

5) For Clippings, noticed User Voice Have a marker when a verse has been added to a clipping (currently # 56)

Observation: seems Leaving Logos........back in 6 months (Daniel Arnott Posted: 18 Feb 2011 1:59 PM) turned into 6 weeks.  With current Logos 4.3 Beta development cycle, anticipating 4.3 stable release in a few months that should resolve some item(s) in Feature Parity list along with adding new feature(s).

Looking at previous posts by Daniel Arnott noted Logos CEO, Bob Pritchett, responded to New Year's Day 2011 post => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/27908/207987.aspx#207987

Rereading Organising notes, reading plan, prayer list etc. (Daniel Arnott Posted: 9 Jan 2011 6:43 AM) prompted an idea => Suggestion: Add Triangles to File Menu for filtering items to Open

Thankful for friendly forum interaction.  Honestly have experienced many Logos 4 Mac improvements since Alpha pre-releases (and lots of crashes); looking forward to more Logos 4 improvements on Mac & PC.  During a Logos 4 Beta cycle with releases nominally every 2 weeks, feels like a present to install and use new Beta on Mac & PC (albeit sometimes includes buggy issues).  Personally have Logos for Mac 1.2.2 installed; primarily use it for forum thread comparisons since Logos 4.2a SR-3 is better and usable on Mac for Bible Study and resource reading (with click on Bible reference quickly changing Hyperlinked Bible location so can read Biblical context).  Logos 4 is better for searching Logos library; do like Logos 4 Bible Word Study rings.  Logos 4.2a Passage Guide has Illustrations and Topics sections.  With Logos Controlled Vocabulary (LCV) improvement, Basic Search of Entire Library now includes Topics.  Likewise have learned how to use Text Comparison for Dead Sea Scrolls with BHS text (need to expand my Hebrew knowledge).  Thankful for Logos 4 improvements. Big Smile

My answer for posted question: "Honest opinions......is Logos going to get better for Mac, is it worth holding out a bit longer?" is Yes, Logos 4 Mac is going to get better (based on past experience).  Learning Logos "Tip: Becoming proficient with Logos 4 features and capabilities takes months of use – practice and perseverance produces powerful results."  Hence, holding out a bit longer delays learning power of Logos 4.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 248
Daniel Arnott | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 4 2011 12:17 AM

Thanks all

One thing I havnt tried yet is a complete OS reinstall and Logos reinstall. I've used Logos 3, upgraded to Alpha Betas, jump off and on the stable and beta channels. I wonder if a reinstall would be beneficial? Any thoughts? It takes a while!!

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 4 2011 12:37 AM

Daniel Arnott:

Thanks all

One thing I havnt tried yet is a complete OS reinstall and Logos reinstall. I've used Logos 3, upgraded to Alpha Betas, jump off and on the stable and beta channels. I wonder if a reinstall would be beneficial? Any thoughts? It takes a while!!

On 27" iMac, chose to do a complete Mac OS X install for 64 bit transition to Intel only along with manually reinstalling applications.  Also chose to not install Rosetta (have read Mac OS X Lion excludes Rosetta).  If my hardware hopes turns into a purchase with Mac OS X Lion, plan to use Apple's migration assistant to copy stuff from 27" iMac configuration (now on an external hard drive).

Quick Installation onto Multiple Macs wiki has some ideas for avoiding re-download of Logos resources.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 82
David L Adams | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 4 2011 5:53 AM

If I may add my 2¢ worth to this discussion, I have also been using Logos since the beginning of the beta stage, and while there are some things that still trouble me about the program (the non-functioning of the morphology-searching interface being chief among them), instability and slowness are not among them. I use a four-year old MacBook Pro with a 17" screen (2.4BHz Core 2, 4GB of RAM). I did find overall performance to be sluggish, but I changed my setup so that the system was operating in 64-bit mode instead of 32-bit mode, and that cured most of my performance concerns. I would advise all users of machines that are capable of operating in 64-bit mode to make sure that you are operating that way (unless, of course, you depend upon some piece of software that will not work that way (a driver or something), but those should be few and far between by now).

The only area of performance that I do find annoying is that the Mac version of the program seems substantially slower than the Windows version when it comes to changing saved layouts. This is a nuisance since I use a lot of saved layouts for my various tasks (class prep, live teaching, OT and NT Bible study, etc. etc.) but it certainly does not make the program unusable.

I have almost no problems with crashes or the program hanging. The rather irritating bugs introduced by 4.3b1 are another matter, but that is what you commit to when you are part of the beta process. –– Can we please get panel linking working again???!!!

One of things that has most impressed me about Logos since becoming a user two years ago is the company's commitment to on-going improvement of its product. I think everyone will admit that it has been something of a rocky road to get where we are, but if you remember where we were a year-and-a-half ago, you must surely recognize that tremendous progress has been made. (No, I do not work for Logos; my only connection to the company is as a customer.) Things are not perfect, but I am impressed with the progress to date and I have every confidence in the direction of things in the future ... well, except maybe for the morphology-searching interface; I am beginning to doubt that we will ever see that working properly (just a friendly poke in the ribs in the hope that it will move things along). Seriously though, if I were not confident in the company (both in its plan and its competence to carry out that plan), then I would not risk my reputation by recommending Logos to my students, which I do regularly.

So, to answer the original question. Yes. I do think that it is worth holding out a bit longer. But given your frustration I would recommend the following: (1) opt out of the beta process and stick to the stable releases; (2) make sure you are operating in 64-bit mode if possible; and (3) contact Logos customer support and get them to work with you to find out what is causing the crashing that you are experiencing and getting a stable working environment. I have found their customer support to be both helpful and friendly. I think you will also.

–– DLA

Posts 170
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 4 2011 6:32 AM

My experience is that the MAC versions are as usable as I need fo rmy research. I haven't upgraded the windows/parallels versions in weeks.  

 

That said, does anyone know how to stop the MAC version from logging?  It seems to me that logging is a slowdown that we can generally afford to live without at this point.

Bob - 17" MBP quad 2.3GHz 4GB  and iMAC

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