New collections explained & Syntax examples

Page 5 of 7 (132 items) « First ... < Previous 3 4 5 6 7 Next >
This post has 132 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2009 3:09 AM

Philip Spitzer:

Daniel DeVilder:
(HERE IS WHERE I NEED SPITZER to GENERATE a GRAPHICAL PICTURE of my IDEA! :)

I think this is what your driving for. This would be what appears when you click the "i" button on a resource pane.

 

I would most definitely like to see this...

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 3917
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2009 4:44 AM

you guys are the BEST!!!  . .. and what keeps me coming back to the forums (that, and my ego and gripes and gripes about other gripers, and the desire to kill time and . . . Stick out tongue)

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2009 2:45 PM

Philip,

You've got a really good handle on collections, would you mind making a FAQ page out of some of this?

http://wiki.logos.com/Collections

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2009 2:59 PM

Thomas Black:
You've got a really good handle on collections, would you mind making a FAQ page out of some of this?

It would  be very easy.... :-) I'll see what I can do.

 

 

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 5:59 AM

Thomas Black:

Philip,

You've got a really good handle on collections, would you mind making a FAQ page out of some of this?

http://wiki.logos.com/Collections

I created a wiki that people can be referenced to for instructions. If there is something I am leaving out or is unclear please feel free to fix it or let me know. In other words, I would love for someone to proof read it. :-)

http://wiki.logos.com/Collections

 

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 6:37 AM

Philip Spitzer:

I created a wiki that people can be referenced to for instructions. If there is something I am leaving out or is unclear please feel free to fix it or let me know. In other words, I would love for someone to proof read it. :-)

http://wiki.logos.com/Collections

Great Phil,

I've popped it open in Firefox's tabs so when I get down there I'll take a gander/sneak a peak.  After ignoring the forums for two full days I've got dozens of tabs/posts open trying to catch up.  Catching up the forums can bring my computer to it's knees.  It's worse than indexing when I've got seventy tabs open. Surprise

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 6:39 AM

Thomas Black:
It's worse than indexing when I've got seventy tabs open. Surprise

I just view the posts I haven't read yet. It seems to work fairly well.

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 6:41 AM

Philip Spitzer:
I just view the posts I haven't read yet. It seems to work fairly well.
Yeah, me too.  But four pages of unread posts now equals about 200 tabs open.  Now to read and respond, read and respond, read and respond....

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 63
Jim Dunne | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 11:53 AM

Robert Pavich:

Jim,

Thanks for being somewhat specific.. Big Smile

It seemed like you are just more unhappy over change but not in any real specific way; 

Example:

"V3 was feature rich but V4 isn't" 

VS a specific statement like:

"I used to accomplish this by doing this this and this and now it's done this way and this is why it's worse to me"

Can you see how one statement is a vague, vacuous statement that really says nothing and the other is a specific statement that can be analyzed and answered?

The one thing you did mention specifically was the sorting of collections however. I was a little shocked at your comparison..."a 10 year old fisherman a commercially equipped fishing boat?"...really?

Although I can imagine how you feel however...when i got V3 and learned what I had to do just to get it to keylink and open the proper resource in the different languages correctly I said the same thing....WHAT THE??

I couldn't believe that they had such a convoluted scheme that I had to learn via buried video on their site to do this thing that was so basic to the operation of the software!!

That's nuts! (I said)

But...I lived with it...and apparently, so did everyone else...

 

I don't see anything that nuts in V4...do you?

 

For example; let's use collections since that was the one specific thing you mentioned:

V3...I was forced to use collections in v3 why? Because it was so slow when searching any large volume of resources that nobody wanted to! Remember the forums? Constant complaining about how collections are necessary due to it's sluggishness.

Remember how collections are made in V3? Trying to sort by author, trying to remember what you have....dragging and dropping...and when you bought a new resource...you had to remember to add it to your collections or it was buried; never to be used! (because there couldn't be an "all library" search due to the slowness.

When V4 came along...I looked at how the collections are sorted...I gave it a shot a few times...and in the space of say 5-10 minutes...I learned the philosophy behind it and see that it's a major improvement.

You also mentioned that you doubt dynamic collections won't  work like the video?: (just a vague paranormal feeling or did you give it a try?)

I can say...from actual practical experience that Yes...they do...

Example: I created a collection of systematic theologies. When I bought a new one, I went to the collections to make sure that it was now included (as I used to have to do in v3) and it was already there...nice.

PS: V4 allows for multiple nested collections that you don't have to download a kluge workaround to accomplish...that's a plus right?

And though I'm no programmer...I was able to understand the concept of sorting like:

"title:"Systematic Theology"

So it seems that that the knowledge gap isn't as wide as "10 year old getting a commercial fishing boat"...do you really?

I guess if that's the only specific thing you had mentioned  that is sub-v3, then frankly...it seems like a bit of puffing without any real substance...

 

Nobody likes change...myself included...but change is necessary and I'm not faulting Logos for not staying like V1....there are still users who refuse to go to v3 because it changed.

 

I do however agree that the parallel resource associations were nice and they are returning...good to know.

 

Anything else specific you can think of?

 

Robert -

OK, your comments are reasonable, for the most part (VACUOUS?  PUFFING!?)  :).  I joined the Logos family of customers just at the outset of v3.  So I didn't go through the last culture shock/shift.  And I actually I do have a background in I/T, so boolean logic is not foreign to me - nor is living with (or imposing) change.  It's pretty much what I do every day.

And yes, I agree that natively supported nested collections are nice - although I don't think it's doing justice to the developer of the old "Collections Management" addin to call it a kludge.  (And yes, I am old enough to know what a kludge is.)

So, OK, let's give this a shot:

I decided to go with building a Theology collection.  I started simply with "theology"Here's the string I ended up with:

theology ANDNOT type:commentary ANDNOT type:dictionary ANDNOT ("Evangelical Review of Theology" OR "Leadership Library" OR "Classical Pastoral Care").

Note that I had to add each of the items above to flush unwanted stuff out of the collection, so they all need to be there.

Oh yea - and I had to exclude 44 books manually, including such diverse entries as "Christian Cyberspace Companion" and "The Star Book for Ministers".

Did this accomplish what I needed it to do?  Yes, I think so.  Was it painless - yes, relatively so for me.  Although a comprehensive list of syntax and types, tags, etc. would be very useful.  Maybe it's in a Help file somplace, but I couldn't track it down, so I guessed my way through it.

Was it simple and intuitive?  NOT.  My opinion is unchanged - this is awkward, overly complicated and fussy, and desparately needs to to graphically-based. 

Will it maintain itself CORRECTLY in the future as I add resources?   I seriously doubt it.  (Doubt as in skepticism based on experience, not paranormal feeling.)  Here's why.

Unfortunately, there's a basic flaw In your example above.  You only tried adding something that you knew would land exactly where you expected it.  I'm sure that adding a new systematic theology text, and having it show up in your existing systematic theologies collection,  worked fine.    

But go out and buy a new multi-volume commentary set, or reference collection, etc., and I'll just bet that you'll find that your systematic theologies collection is now polluted with all sorts of interesting stuff you never expected.  Simply because there's probably nothing in the filter that will intelligently EXCLUDE things that don't fit your expectations. 

The collections filter tool leans toward logical inclusion - start by including everything that matches parameter x, and then lift out (exclude) only those things that meet the following specific criteria.  Unfortunately, those "specific criteria" are only valid at the time of creation - add new data that matches the initial inclusive parameter, but not any of the initial exlusive parameters, and the resulting filtered data will no longer meet expectations.

A couple of suggestions for Team Logos here:

1.  When you're building the collection by dragging volumes into the "Exclude" section, the main list window below should stay at the same point, instead of redisplaying from the top.  The constant scrolling back down to where you left off is very tedious.

2.  As the text-based filter is developed during the creation of the collection, it would be helpful if volumes already in the "Exclude" section were automatically removed as the filter encompasses them.  It will keep things a bit cleaner.  Sometimes you don't necessarily see patterns (series, multi-volume sets, etc.) until you've dragged a few volumes into the exclude box.

So that's my take now that I've played with it a bit.  Will I stay with 3.x?  No, of course not.  I'm just going to keep hoping that someone comes up with a more elegant way to handle collections.

Blessings,

Jim D.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 12:12 PM

Jim,

Got it...I understand where you're coming from...

It does seem to be related to how well you build your "filters"

 

In your case...you typed:

 

theology

Was this a title, a type, part of a description? what was it? You got a hit but why?

I think that your example that you had to drag a lot of thing to the collection and lots out of it just says that your query term was not quite what it should be...right?

I think that's the crux of it...knowing what resources you want in a group, and why you want them there...wouldn't you agree?

Did you have certain theological resources in mind when you built your query?

you said:

I decided to go with building a Theology collection.  I started simply with "theology"Here's the string I ended up with:

theology ANDNOT type:commentary ANDNOT type:dictionary ANDNOT ("Evangelical Review of Theology" OR "Leadership Library" OR "Classical Pastoral Care").

It looks like there were tons of unwanted hits due to the way you constructed the first query or limiter or whatever we are calling it.

Had you used:

title:"Systematic Theology" or whatever...then you'd have had a more smooth time of it.

In my case; I built a "systematic theology" query as follows:

title:theology, ANDNOT title:"old testament"

As I said already; I bought a book from logos and it showed up in my collection automatically...just what it's supposed to do.

In V3, if I didn't remember to manually add it...it was lost forever...unless i accidentally did a full library search (which no one ever did due to the glacial slowness) then I realized it was there.

I just don't get the heart burn over this....it's not only simple; it's automatic.

 

But I guess...to each his own...

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 12:25 PM

Jim,

I took a look at your query and I see why you think what you do about how unreliable this system is...it's because your query was very broad flawed at the start that you manually excluded tons of things to make up for it.

I took your query and changed it...click the link to see what happened. (and I'll take your bet that if I buy a commentary collection it won't show up in this group...)

I started with a jumble of 46 unrelated things...but by targeting the title "theology" then I narrowed it down and just had to dump one or two things...nothing had to be dragged at all.

This could have been done 20 different ways but this was a pretty robust way to do it.

 

http://www.screencast.com/users/rpavich123/folders/Jing/media/ff585998-5ad0-4ed0-a62d-06c72d2caf8e

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 12:48 PM

JimDunne:
Although a comprehensive list of syntax and types, tags, etc. would be very useful.

I'm starting to build one at http://wiki.logos.com/Collections

 

Posts 1666
SteveF | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 1:06 PM

Library Size:2251 Collection Size: 81 Title: Theologies Rule: title:doctrine, title:theology, dogmatics ANDNOT type:journal Items included: Fundamentals, God, Revelation, and Authority, Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms, What We Believe Items Excluded: Biographical Entries from Evangelical..., Semeia 43

 

philip this is the best, clearest most helpful instruction yet, esp on nested collections.

BUT it still shows the 'wierdness' of this way of doing things.

I put in the above theology rule. My results DO NOT include Carl Henry's "God, Revelation & Authority" nor any of the IVP POCKET dictionaries.

Steve

ps. I did learn from you that " " must (sometime) be included WHEN WHY? (besides the fact that was the only way you could get it too work.)

I strongly agree with our other brother's complaint that this is not intuitve, I would love to know how many Bible Study folks know how to make multi-bracketted rules. Itseems to me we have traded one "kludge" for another?

Steve

ps. Philip, thank you again for your clear examples, whether I can get them to work or not.

[edit: Are you saying you then DRAGGED "Henry" & "Pockets" in and dragged Semeia 43 out?]

 

Regards, SteveF

Posts 63
Jim Dunne | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 1:09 PM

Yep, this is a great idea.  Definitely gets my vote.

Jim D.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 1:12 PM

Stephen Filyer:
I put in the above theology rule. My results DO NOT include Carl Henry's "God, Revelation & Authority" nor any of the IVP POCKET dictionaries.

I'll make a note about this on the wiki. the "Items included"  are the items I had to manually add to the collection. Excluded are those I had to manually remove.

Thanks for the the positive feedback :-)

Posts 1666
SteveF | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 1:20 PM

[edit: Are you saying you then DRAGGED "Henry" & "Pockets" in and dragged Semeia 43 out?]

(Yes.)

Ah, thank you Philip

Wonderful!

I added <author:"carl henry",> and "God, Revelation & Authority" appeared.

thanks again

Steve

Regards, SteveF

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 1:26 PM

Stephen Filyer:
ps. I did learn from you that " " must (sometime) be included WHEN WHY?

without quotes [bible study] is equal to [bible AND study] and will find a resource like "why study the Bible" or "studying the Bible on your own" while ["Bible Study"] searches for the exact phrase and those resources would not be included where "the MacArthur Bible Study" would. A Space character in the search syntax is equal to AND, a comma is equal to OR.

Hope that makes sense. That information is yet to be added to the "Creating Rules" section.

Posts 63
Jim Dunne | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 1:31 PM

Robert Pavich:

Jim,

I took a look at your query and I see why you think what you do about how unreliable this system is...it's because your query was very broad flawed at the start that you manually excluded tons of things to make up for it.

I took your query and changed it...click the link to see what happened. (and I'll take your bet that if I buy a commentary collection it won't show up in this group...)

I started with a jumble of 46 unrelated things...but by targeting the title "theology" then I narrowed it down and just had to dump one or two things...nothing had to be dragged at all.

This could have been done 20 different ways but this was a pretty robust way to do it.

 

http://www.screencast.com/users/rpavich123/folders/Jing/media/ff585998-5ad0-4ed0-a62d-06c72d2caf8e

 

Sigh.  Robert, you make my point for me very well.  I watched your screencast - and it would have excluded the other 27 resources that belonged in my collection very nicely.  As I said, i built the rule progressively to get the resources I wanted.  Maybe yours worked for you - it wouldn't work for me.  Likewise, maybe mine wouldn't work for you either. 

Among the things you would exclude in my library are the excellent 7-volume systematic theology opus by Donald Bloesch - since "theology" doesn't appear in the titles of any of the books. 

My brother in Christ, please believe me when I say that I'm not suggesting you're wrong, nor am I being critical of your effort.  How could you possibly know that about Bloesch's work?  But that's kind of the point too, though - isn't it?  Why should you have to?   

But here's the real point, and the BIG DEAL:  What the heck are a bunch of people who are learning to use a new Bible Study tool doing, having to wrangle about the best, most efficient, accurate way to write a database query, in what looks suspiciously like a form SQL?   

This whole idea is LOONEY TUNES! 

And please note: I did not ever suggest that the system is unreliable.  It's not - I'm sure the folks are far too talented for that to be an issue. 

IF this was provided as an alternative way to build collections, backstopping an intuitive, graphical tool that allowed people to create a collection name, scroll and search through their libraries and drag stuff they want into it, THEN I can see where it would have a place.  But as the only collections tool?  No way.

Blessings,

Jim D.

Posts 3917
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 1:47 PM

Jim D, I am essentially with you on your reflections.  To me the ideal of dynamic collections are nice, the implementation of them is tedious and suspect for guys like me.  But I NEED collections to narrow down fields of study to search within.

 

And I wonder why Logos couldn't use any one of a number of current library classification systems to at least START us on the path of having resources grouped logically ALREADY when we get them (and we'd have the option to edit, create dynamic rules as we wanted/could).

 

Peace.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 1:58 PM

JimDunne:

But here's the real point, and the BIG DEAL:  What the heck are a bunch of people who are learning to use a new Bible Study tool doing, having to wrangle about the best, most efficient, accurate way to write a database query, in what looks suspiciously like a form SQL?   

This whole idea is LOONEY TUNES! 

I come at this issue 100% behind the new dynamic direction of collections in L4. However I believe you have a very valid point regarding collections being intimidating to people. I'm not sure how to do it, but I hope the brains at Logos can put together something more user friendly and less intimidating in the future.

Page 5 of 7 (132 items) « First ... < Previous 3 4 5 6 7 Next > | RSS