Morphological Search on Lemma - Please Help...

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John Fugh, Jr. | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Apr 23 2011 12:40 PM

I am trying to see the instances that βλεπω is within 200 words of οραω or ειδον.  See clipping below.  I know that this appears in John 20 in verse 1 and verse 8 but it is not appearing in this search.  Can someone help me to see what I have done incorrectly?

John

 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 12:59 PM

Unfortunately morph and Bible searches don't cross verse boundaries. You'd have to re-create this as a Basic search if you want to cross verse boundaries. In a basic search, operators work within chapters, not verses. You should be able to switch to the basic view, double check your resources is still set to ESV, and you're good to go.

However, switching from a Morph to a basic search does make a more complex syntax than you actually need. If you were starting from scratch, the basic syntax would be <lemma = lbs/el/βλέπω> WITHIN 200 words (<lemma = lbs/el/ὁράω>,<lemma = lbs/el/εἶδον>)

Posts 605
John Fugh, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 1:09 PM

Thank you Mark.  If under a Basic search, then I can't limit it to just the book of John could I?

 

By the way - love your videos, thanks!

John

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 1:27 PM

John Fugh, Jr.:
If under a Basic search, then I can't limit it to just the book of John could I?

No, unfortunately not, but they are sorted in canonical order.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 1:30 PM

John Fugh, Jr.:

If under a Basic search, then I can't limit it to just the book of John could I?

Can add Bible intersection to Basic Search:

<bible ~ John> <lemma = lbs/el/βλέπω> WITHIN 200 words (<lemma = lbs/el/ὁράω>,<lemma = lbs/el/εἶδον>)

Bible intersection includes footnotes with references to book of John along with occurrences in book of John.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 605
John Fugh, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 3:10 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
<bible ~ John> <lemma = lbs/el/βλέπω> WITHIN 200 words (<lemma = lbs/el/ὁράω>,<lemma = lbs/el/εἶδον>)

 

Thank you!  This goes to show that I need to do more work on learning the ins and outs of the search!

 

j

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 4:04 PM

John Fugh, Jr.:
This goes to show that I need to do more work on learning the ins and outs of the search!

Personally have lots more to learn.  Bible and Footnote Text search in Entire Library

This All Text search can be replicated by searching Bible Text; Footnote Text; Surface Text.

Keep Smiling Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 5:52 PM

Mark Barnes:
Unfortunately morph and Bible searches don't cross verse boundaries.

Really? verses are sometimes not even complete sentences. Of course, I feel about chapters and verses about the same as George feels about interlinears.Cool

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 9:51 PM

MJ. Smith:
Really? verses are sometimes not even complete sentences.

Text searches use convenient textual boundaries, and article/chapter (Basic Search) is better than verse. A Syntax Search is needed for sentences, however, this search attempts to relate "seeing" events that cross grammatical boundaries so a text search is better suited.

Dave
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 10:47 PM

MJ. Smith:
Really? verses are sometimes not even complete sentences

If we type God AND love in a Bible search, we want Logos to look for those two words within the same verse. But if we type God NEAR love, then we don't — but Logos treats them both the same. The problem Logos has is that inconsistency is confusing. If verse boundaries don't matter with NEAR searches, but do with AND searches, what should it do with God AND (love NEAR world), or with (God NEAR Son) AND (love NEAR world)?

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 11:03 PM

Mark Barnes:

MJ. Smith:
Really? verses are sometimes not even complete sentences

If we type God AND love in a Bible search, we want Logos to look for those two words within the same verse. But if we type God NEAR love, then we don't — but Logos treats them both the same. The problem Logos has is that inconsistency is confusing. If verse boundaries don't matter with NEAR searches, but do with AND searches, what should it do with God AND (love NEAR world), or with (God NEAR Son) AND (love NEAR world)?

I'm not too sure about your distinction between AND and NEAR, but perhaps what we need is to suggest that there be a switch in the form of a simple "yes/no" choice to observe verse boundaries.  Within 200 words?!! That's a looooooong loooooong way. 

BTW, MJ:  I don't hate interlinears -- I find them intellectually repugnant.  Stick out tongue

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 11:55 PM

Mark Barnes:
If we type God AND love in a Bible search, we want Logos to look for those two words within the same verse.

If people choose AND vs. NEAR then they usually understand that proximity is unimportant, but many may be grateful that the search is limited to a verse.

Mark Barnes:
But if we type God NEAR love, then we don't — but Logos treats them both the same. The problem Logos has is that inconsistency is confusing.

Logos have been consistent since the days of L3 and probably L2. Once users understand that a proximity search (WITHIN x Words, NEAR) provides better results then they are usually disappointed/confused that a Bible Search is restricted to Verses.

Mark Barnes:
If verse boundaries don't matter with NEAR searches, but do with AND searches ...

Any search query is affected by its boundaries (Verse for Bible/Morph Search; Article/Chapter for Basic Search); the choice of AND vs NEAR is independent of boundaries.

 

Dave
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 24 2011 12:44 AM

George Somsel:
BTW, MJ:  I don't hate interlinears -- I find them intellectually repugnant.  Stick out tongue

Okay - I'll admit to seeing chapter and verse as useful in the same sense that page and line numbers are useful for legal papers. It is the misuse of them as "real" that I hate because it is intellectually repugnant.Stick out tongueWink

And yes, I will admit that most biblical resources are built of them so Logos has met their users needs.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 93
painfree | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 25 2011 8:02 AM

John (or others) I am a bit baffled as to what the purpose is of finding 2 or 3 greek words within 200 words of each other. What would happen if you looked for them within 213 words of each other or even 227 ?  Am I missing something that I should be seeing here or is it simply a statistical exercise?

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Cliff Schroeder | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 25 2011 8:18 AM

George Somsel:
BTW, MJ:  I don't hate interlinears -- I find them intellectually repugnant.  Stick out tongue

 

I'm curious George,(no...with all your might...don't go there) why are interlinears so intellectually reprehensible?  That's not a rhetorical question.  I've heard the same rumblings from others, yet I've never seen anyone delineate the basis for their loathing,  Am I missing something?  Again, it's a serious question; is there something regarding interlinears that a neophyte Greek student should be aware of?

Thanks George!

Cliff

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 25 2011 8:42 AM

Cliff Schroeder:

George Somsel:
BTW, MJ:  I don't hate interlinears -- I find them intellectually repugnant.  Stick out tongue

 

I'm curious George,(no...with all your might...don't go there) why are interlinears so intellectually reprehensible?  That's not a rhetorical question.  I've heard the same rumblings from others, yet I've never seen anyone delineate the basis for their loathing,  Am I missing something?  Again, it's a serious question; is there something regarding interlinears that a neophyte Greek student should be aware of?

Thanks George!

Cliff

No, you're not Curious George, I am.  (Sorry, the Devil made me do it) 

Consider what happens when you use an interlinear.  Do you bother to investigate any word which you don't know?  I'd wager that the answer is "No" 99% of the time (perhaps more).  So what do you do?  You take the gloss that the parallel translation gives right before your eyes.  That is no way to learn the language.  It simply serves to fool the user into thinking that he is actually gaining some benefit from reading the original language.  What he is really doing is simply reading an English translation and comparing it with the original.  In other words, it's a game of "Let's pretend" -- Let's pretend we really are gaining something profound by using a translation tied to the original language.  Does its simple presence there confer any benefit?  What you are really reading is an English translation.  It is an exercise in fooling one's self.

EDIT:  The use of an interlinear will actually RETARD an acquisition of the original language rather than promote it so, especially if you are attempting to learn the language, avoid it like the plague it is.

EDIT2:  If you must have a "pony" (which is what a translation is called when attempting to read an ancient document), I suggest that you place it UNDERNEATH the original and look at it only when you're really "stuck."

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 25 2011 8:47 AM

George Somsel:
I'd wager that the answer is "No" 99% of the time (perhaps more).

I'd wager you're wrong.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 25 2011 8:52 AM

Mark Barnes:

George Somsel:
I'd wager that the answer is "No" 99% of the time (perhaps more).

I'd wager you're wrong.

How much are you willing to put up?  Normally I don't bet on anything -- not even sure things -- but this is different.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 29
Cliff Schroeder | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 25 2011 8:55 AM

George Somsel:
So what do you do?  You take the gloss that the parallel translation gives right before your eyes.

 

[Shuffles feet...looks down at the floor}  Uhmm...me?  No way!! 

It's a point well taken George.  Used improperly, the interlinear could convey a sense of false scholarship.  In a way, it's a form of circular translation;  I'm using English, to interpret English with a thin veneer of Greek floating somewhere in the background.

Posts 605
John Fugh, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 25 2011 9:00 AM

painfree:
John (or others) I am a bit baffled as to what the purpose is of finding 2 or 3 greek words within 200 words of each other. What would happen if you looked for them within 213 words of each other or even 227 ?  Am I missing something that I should be seeing here or is it simply a statistical exercise?

 

Fair Question.  I guess there is nothing special about the number of words.  When I first did the search, I had it at 10 words and when I didn't find my passage in the results, I increased and finally stopped at 200 thinking there was a problem.  I suppose that when search a pericope or a chapter, one may want to arbitrarily choose a high number of words.

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