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Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2009 12:32 PM

Damian McGrath:

Matthew Friend:

Because I have invested a significant amount of money in Logos, my only concern with Logos 4 is if something happens in the future (hopefully it never will) that would result in the company going out of business or being unreachable (which means we would not be able to install or use the software locally).  I also work in IT and tend to reformat my hard drive and reinstall programs all the time. With version 3 we could install the software using our license file.

I guess this is an issue with a lot of software today (such as software that requires activation to install it. ).

Matthew,

You will be able to receive an activation key upon request. This will allow you to install the program without internet access (and without the existence of Logos).

Thats fine if you have a cd or dvd copy.. but what if you downloaded a copy.. I have already purchased a few downloaded only.. and have one in pre-pub..

That is about the only thing I am worried about.. the cloud does not bother me..If God allows something to happen to me because I am doing his will, or studying his word, or getting ready for a teaching using Logos.. then I would rather have that happen, then not do Gods will at all..

 

we worry to much..

5 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001. Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

I do not know about anyone else. But my eternal "daddy" has control of my life.. I have nothing to fear, even death!

 

Posts 10
Larry Fisher | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2009 2:29 PM

RussWhite:
As Logos goes down this road, it is committing everyone who uses this software to a specific worldview--a worldview many people would argue is not Christian (including me).

 

A lot of this is beyond me. But next to me is an open book (The word of God) and in front of me is my computer screen. That which is to my left is what fills my heart and thoughts and actions. My lot in life didn’t consist of a very good education, but I love the lot our Father has given me. I am content with the little that I have which makes me richer than a lot of others. The Lord even blessed me with free internet access from the university which is close by. I say all this because nothing and I mean absolutely nothing comes into my life that is apart from the will of God in Christ for me. Logos is but a tool for me to learn some things that many here went to college or seminary or bible college to learn (Greek, Hebrew, the insights of others). I have the excitement of a school boy. No unchristian things are being learned or presented, and no world views being assimilated here, just someone who God has blessed  with this logos stuff. So I play around in the sandbox of Greek and Hebrew and the libraries of those that came before me and then I go and listen to the big kids in the forums. My life is simple and there is peace on my borders. Take Logos away and I still have what is to my left and the extra’s that I could not have got any other way had it not been for the developers of Logos.

Thanks Larry

 

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 5:14 AM

To go back to this old thread, and a bunch of people calling me a conspiracy theorist, kook, etc.

1. I think part of the problem is that Logos picked up a "cool marketing term," and used it without really thinking through what it means. "The cloud" has a specific connotation in computer and networking circles. Generally Google'ish sorts of things, where the network collects everything it can about you, and then sells that information to the highest bidder. Or to every bidder, in fact.Since Logos is not, in fact, building on "the cloud," but rather a separate network owned by them (for now), what they are doing really isn't "the cloud." Poor choice of marketing, IMHO.

2. For anyone who thinks "the cloud" is harmless, think again. I know I'm fighting an uphill battle here, because most folks just don't think it's worth knowing what's going on in the world, don't think persecution will ever come in the US, and don't think privacy is something you should protect or care about. "God will take care of it." Maybe God wants you to be a little thoughtful on your own every now and again. I don't buy the "God takes care of those who take care of themselves," business, but I also don't buy the "I'm just going to worship and learn, and forget the world, and not pay attention to the world" crowd, either.

The saddest part is that the church has descended to the point where if someone says, "this is cause for concern," the labels come out and get flung around with abandon. "Conspiracy theorist," "kook," etc. As John John Loeffler says, "You're failure to be informed doesn't make me a whacko."

I have a challenge for you: Ask any Christian who's actually lived in Communist China what it's like to live in a police state. I know folks in this situation, and I know the suffering they endure. I know that God can bring such things about in the US with me or without me. I know God is in control, but I also believe God does give me a place and an impact in this world, and I can make it a better place--or not. Burying my head in the sand, and calling anyone who says, "watch out for that one," a whacko is certainly one response. But it's not the path I choose.

Russ

 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 5:46 AM

RussWhite:

The saddest part is that the church has descended to the point where if someone says, "this is cause for concern," the labels come out and get flung around with abandon. "Conspiracy theorist," "kook," etc. As John John Loeffler says, "You're failure to be informed doesn't make me a whacko."

The early Christians and Church were non-conformists. Sadly I can't say that applies to both today. However, Russ we have some forum rules which says that you need to keep your discussion "focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc"  rather than your reputation. It was better that this topic stayed where it was.

Dave
===

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 5:52 AM

RussWhite:

I have a challenge for you: Ask any Christian who's actually lived in Communist China what it's like to live in a police state. I know folks in this situation, and I know the suffering they endure. I know that God can bring such things about in the US with me or without me. I know God is in control, but I also believe God does give me a place and an impact in this world, and I can make it a better place--or not. Burying my head in the sand, and calling anyone who says, "watch out for that one," a whacko is certainly one response. But it's not the path I choose.

Russ

I don't share your specific Revelation views, but I have little problem with your cloud concerns.  Of course they can be used against us (info found in the cloud, that is).  And it very well could be.  For persecution or seduction.  We should be aware that any of this could happen.  Having access to our info via the cloud can make it pretty easy to pin us down.  that said, while I have never lived behind the Iron Curtain, like Bohuslav, I have lived surrounded by it.  West Berlin.  I know enough to know that no matter if there is a cloud or a nosy neighbor next door, the human condition and my calling can always add up to tribulation and persecution, one from which it is hard to run.

 

Thanks for sharing your concerns.  I appreciate your position and how your field makes you more leery and wary of things.  Be prudent.  But also trust the Father.  (not saying you don't).  and Be Prepared.  It is our lot to suffer.  Faithfulness in all, is the key.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 5:56 AM

Cloud-raception: I would like the ability to prevent info from connection fully to the Logos cloud.  Specifically, WHICH info is kept from it.  For instance, say I have a journal i keep.  Personal.  Private.  Transparent.  I would not want that leaked.  With a little check mark in the corner of that journal note, I could select: "not synced with Logos."  Right now, it is Either/Or.  Either ALL of it, or NONE of it.  Give a bit more control to us.

 

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 5:57 AM

Dan DeVilder:
Cloud-raception

 

Sorry.  Trying to coin a phrase.  Play off of "contra ception" .

 

if you have to explain it, it probably sucks.  Stick out tongueEmbarrassedZip it!

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 6:15 AM

Except that it had already descended to my reputation long before now, and I'm just now getting to the point of actually answering it. In fact, part of the reason I answered was because of a series on persecution on Herescope which I've found quite useful.

-- Calling someone a kook: allowed.
-- Defending yourself against name calling: not allowed.

Nice. I intended that last post to be my final on this thread, but this one really is. Feel free to continue calling me names in my absence.

Russ

Posts 3683
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 1:33 PM

RussWhite:
(wishing I could combine these answers, but I don't see how to on this forum?)

It's easy enough that even I can do it... 

Choose a note that you want to reply to, & click "Reply". Just under the title of the page "Reply to: ....." , you'll see these links: Home > [Sub-forum name]  > [Post subject]

Now, ctrl-click on the link to this thread [Post subject], & a new page will open to the 1st page of the thread. Navigate to the OTHER post you want to reply to, & click reply... quote whatever you want to, then cut/paste the text back to the post you're constructing in the original window. You can navigate to as many posts as you like in the thread to make a composite response.

Blessings!

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 11:30 AM

Some may call this post "OFF-TOPIC" but I do think it sheds a lot of light on Russ White's many posts. I just wish I had checked it out last November.

Russ White:
for those who might be interested:
 http://www.riw.us

I find your website informative and interesting. (Very good quality production-wise, too.)
I've only perused a small percentage but it bolsters your credibility and if others missed it too, I thought they might ought to get a second chance to see it.

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 12:17 PM

Russ White:
to a specific worldview

??

Russ White:
people would argue is not Christian

Acts 4:32

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 12:54 PM

I think that this post finally gets me to understand the more basic differences between us that gives us different perspectives on this issue.

Russ White:
For anyone who thinks "the cloud" is harmless, think again.

In my view the technology is harmless. How it is used determines whether or not it is harmless. Yes, the cloud could be harmful but I see nothing in Logos' implementation that is harmful. For my use of Logos, there isn't even a potential harm for me.

Russ White:
Ask any Christian who's actually lived in Communist China what it's like to live in a police state. I know folks in this situation, and I know the suffering they endure. I know that God can bring such things about in the US with me or without me.

My response to this would be to consider it my responsibility to do God's work to prevent America from becoming a police state - working to bring charity, hope and peace to the world.

Russ White:
The saddest part is that the church has descended to the point where if someone says, "this is cause for concern," the labels come out and get flung around with abandon.

My church is anti-war (with a just war exception), anti-death penalty and anti-abortion. Interestingly, it is only the last that results in labels. My guess as to why - the church has a well reasoned, documented position that can be pointed to; the document is tied both to history and to Scripture to the point it begins to resemble a court document appealing to law and precedent.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1985
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 2:32 PM

I think I will jump in at this point. Very good discussion thread and one that will pop up again and again.  Just one comment to make.  I invested heavily in L3 because of the direction L3 took...and we had every reason to believe that the business model of L3 would continue.  What if it would not continue?  Well we should not worry about it...because it is the direction Logos decided to take.  And I liked it.  So I invested in L3.  Now with L4 we see that Logos has taken a very different direction.  I think L4 is better than L3.  I like it a lot and I still purchase resources.  But I no longer invest heavily into the program.  The explanations that Logos gives for their decisions on L4 are great.  But what will L5 be like?  If during the time of L3 I questioned whether L4 would be similar, I would have received the answer that it would be and I can trust that Logos would not make any major move away from their L3 model.  Well they did.  Logos today tells us that we can turn off the cloud and we have our resources.  We can buy a DVD (a technology that is going to one day be obsolete) and that there is no worries about security.  And that is all true today.  I wonder...or do I need to wonder?  The point I understand Russ to be making is that what L4 is today is all great and good but it will not last.  The cloud may today be in hybrid mode.  But cloud computing is heading completely to the clouds.  And there are security concerns as everything we do in the cloud remains and can be traced.  Was the move to cloud computing a good business decision?  Absolutely.  Does it make many happy?  Absolutely.  Does it disappoint others?  Absolutely.  I continue to support the program because it is a great program and because I invested heavily through the years in it. But if I were new to the program, this issue that Russ speaks of would concern me enough to stay far away.

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 5:01 PM

All the talk of using Logos4 without the cloud miss two important points:

1) We can't backup/restore or export/import our user-content. Logos tell us the files and directories are black boxes with no user-serviceable access.

2) We can't export our License keys/files (as we can with L3).

I'd like to be able to backup my user-content in such a way that I can import/restore an old Note I deleted, or load back a Collection that got lost.

I'd like to export my License Keys after every new purchase (just as I do n L3 even now), or even for Logos to email me the file along with the current ThankYou notice after each sale.

I'd like to be able to install the current version to my laptop, load the license key file, and then scan the resource backups from a DVD, then import my content all without going online. Until/unless Logos4 can do that, I consider it broken in an important way, and something I'm really not happy about!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 7:31 PM

MarkSwaim:
But what will L5 be like?

I would be scared if anyone thought they could answer this question.Geeked

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1985
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 7:54 PM

MJ. Smith:
I would be scared if anyone thought they could answer this question

You are absolutely right.  That is what L4 has taught us.  The parameters of L4 may not be the same for L5.  Back in the days of L3 many thought that L4 would be a better version of L3.  So the assumption we held was that L4 would just be an improvement of L3.  There would be more companies signing onto the Libronix platform; the search engine would be more efficient etc, but essentially, the same program.  Then L4 came along and we observe that the Libronix platform was abandoned; it became a sin to mention any companies that produced L4 other than Logos.  It still baffles my mind how there can be competition when Logos holds the reigns to everything in L4; retail sale of the product disappeared and we were no longer trusted as customers to hold onto our own purchases. We are told that we can turn off the cloud and run the program locally and get DVD updates periodically if we live in areas where there is not unlimited downloading or hostile places on earth.  L5?  Most likely DVDs will be a thing of the past; unlimited downloading will also be a thing of the past.  Already this past week the major companies have announced that this is so; Downloading such big files will not only be inconvenient, but not feasible nor desirable.  Welcome cloud computing without the hybrid!  it will be the only way to go...well...if you want the best, that is. Today we have a hybrid.  But the world is looking to the clouds and will be in the clouds fully very soon.  There will always be software available that one actually owns and can use offline.  But with the current philosophy today, Logos will not be in that class.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 8:22 PM

MarkSwaim:
So the assumption we held was that L4 would just be an improvement of L3.

Another case where our assumptions led to different expectations. With the changes occurring in technology I expected an XML product using a native XML database and a semantic mapping behind the indexing. I expected more text analysis tools and more sophisticated linguistic visual tools. For the user interface I expected more ability to work on collaborative projects. I also hoped for a more graphic and template (graphic organizer) approach to notes and more user-generated tagging/indexing.

Obviously, my crystal ball was on the fritz.Wink But in general thrust, I think Logos 4 and my expectations were headed in similar directions.

But my expectations were based on the changes I had seen in the industry- the hurdles that had been overcome and the processing and presentation that made possible. I know some of what is being worked on in computational linguistics but beyond some familiarity with OWL and its buddies, I no longer keep up on the broader industry. What changes will L5 deal with? No one knows and I have some impolite names to call anyone who thinks they do. [Hey, I didn't say I'd use them - merely that they are in my vocabulary]Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1985
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 8:49 PM

MJ. Smith:
Another case where our assumptions led to different expectations

Right again. Your expectation was based on understanding of the industry.  You therefore were not caught by surprise.  I was caught by surprise.  I do not have the same understanding of the industry, so I bring up questions and concerns and on the old forum I and others did so and we got solid answers that we held onto.  We can trust Logos.  They are a company that can be trusted.  So we did, and we invested and encouraged the company.  And what did I learn with the release of L4?  I was reminded that I am to trust the Lord, not man.  I will say no more though I could.

MJ. Smith:
But my expectations were based on the changes I had seen in the industry

My expectations were based on the discussions that came from the old forum.  The lesson I have learned since has not been lost on me.

MJ. Smith:
What changes will L5 deal with? No one knows and I have some impolite names to call anyone who thinks they do

We return now to Russ and his concern.  Is it legitimate?  Absolutely because no one knows what changes will be taking place with future releases.  And that makes it all the more clear that since no one knows, Logos and their staff I suppose don't know either.  Thus, to trust the words of a forum or the words of a company would be...well I suppose I should defer to your quote on this one.

One question, MJ. Would it really be correct to say that industry changes are the reason why Logos abandoned the Libronix format?  or was it a change in philosophy?  Because I just don't see how industry changes would affect a philosophy of inviting companies to produce resources in a Libronix format that would change as technology changes...but they would still be invited to use the engine and market their own material separate from Logos.  I realize I am not an expert in the industry.  But I just don't see what industry changes occurred to make such a radical departure from that philosophy.  I think it was a business decision, not driven by industry.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 9:08 PM

MarkSwaim:
One question, MJ. Would it really be correct to say that industry changes are the reason why Logos abandoned the Libronix format? 

My guess would be changes in the industry. My thinking is that storage became inexpensive and that index/retrieval became capable of handling much more elaborate interrelationships between texts. It also became feasible to do much more indexing on documents generated by the user. I suspect that the Libronix format did not scale well to the new expectations or did not transfer well to new platforms. Which I don't know - I'm not privy to the design details.

The second angle on it was that portable devices became common so that users would expect to have access to their Logos resources, including their user generated resources, on their portable devices. For that to occur in a manner that was sufficiently automated that the user didn't have to remember to do maintenance tasks regularly, Logos needed a certain level of control over the resources - enough control to do the maintenance tasks we might forget. I still think that the relationship between Logos and its associates (JPS, Augsburg-Fortress, etc.) is an open question - what I've read and what I've seen don't yet provide a cohesive picture. But certainly the increased complexity of resources requires that Logos have a higher degree of confidence that 3rd party products comply with all standards.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 6 2010 5:33 AM

Matthew C Jones:

Some may call this post "OFF-TOPIC" but I do think it sheds a lot of light on Russ White's many posts. I just wish I had checked it out last November.

Russ White:
for those who might be interested:
 http://www.riw.us

I find your website informative and interesting. (Very good quality production-wise, too.)
I've only perused a small percentage but it bolsters your credibility and if others missed it too, I thought they might ought to get a second chance to see it.

 

Thank you. I'm sorry if I've been a bit harsh on this topic, or overbearing. At the moment, I've decided just to pull my notes from Logos, and leave the topic alone for a while. I'll probably post a few things on my blog about how I'm pulling my notes from Logos, because a few people have asked me (in my church, etc), and it's easier to explain once than many times. But I don't intend to disparage Logos in any way in such posts, just show people what keeping notes in a different program, along with the interlinking I think is really needed to make the resources useful, involves.

:-)

Russ

 

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