Change/Replace text within a book ?

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Posts 92
Chris Lohroff | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 9:30 AM

Lionel,

I did this recently after reading MacArthur's Slave.  I assume you are prompted by the same book?  Here is how I did it.

First I created the following highlight:

 

Then I created the following visual filter.  Notice that I also included the OT Hebrew words that MacArthur mentioned.  I realize that technically this isn't correct because I'm displaying the greek, but it's fine for my purposes.

 

I'm quite pleased with the results.  I decided to preserve the translator's word (as a small superscript) because it facilitates reading with others.  The change also appears when I print the text.

 

Posts 117
Lionel B Dyck | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 9:40 AM

Awesome - thanks.  You are correct that reading John's book prompted my question.

question:  does this change also allow you to find every occurance of slave when you search for slave ?

Posts 92
Chris Lohroff | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 10:54 AM

I don't know the answer.  It does seem that this search string does what you want.  If you search the entire NT for

<GreekStrongs = Strong’s Greek #1401> OR <GreekStrongs = Strong’s Greek #4889> OR <GreekStrongs = Strong’s Greek #1402>

 

you'll get 144 occurrences.  As I recall that was close to the same number that MacArthur referred to.

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 1:57 PM

Chris Lohroff:

Lionel,

I did this recently after reading MacArthur's Slave.  I assume you are prompted by the same book?  Here is how I did it.

First I created the following highlight:

 

 

Then I created the following visual filter.  Notice that I also included the OT Hebrew words that MacArthur mentioned.  I realize that technically this isn't correct because I'm displaying the greek, but it's fine for my purposes.

Why are you changing things that aren't doulos to doulos?

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 92
Chris Lohroff | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 2:25 PM

G1402 and G4889 have doulos (G1401) as their root.  As I recall, H5650 is translated as doulos in the Septuagint, although I don't recall my source for this.  I believe MacArthur mentioned that in his book but I can't say for sure.

That was my thinking.  Am I off base?  My intent was not to render the actual Greek, but to remind myself when I'm reading that this passage relates to the type of service and commitment discussed in the book.

Posts 92
Chris Lohroff | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 2:30 PM

Initially I had created separate highlights for doulos, syndoulos, etc but decided it really wasn't buying me anything so I pointed them all to the same one.  It would certainly be more correct to go with the former approach but the latter was better for me.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 3:02 PM

Chris Lohroff:

Initially I had created separate highlights for doulos, syndoulos, etc but decided it really wasn't buying me anything so I pointed them all to the same one.  It would certainly be more correct to go with the former approach but the latter was better for me.

If you're so intent on finding the Greek words, why don't you simply read from the NA27.  If you can't read the NA27, you don't gain anything by that process.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 92
Chris Lohroff | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 3:57 PM

I've actually found it to be incredibly helpful and I'm not sure why you think you could say otherwise, George.

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 4:02 PM

Peace, George!

                        Are you having a "bad hair" day?

                                                  *smile*

         

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 5:05 PM

Milford Charles Murray:
    Are you having a "bad hair" day?

The last I heard you had to have hair to have a bad hair day -- well, I do have a few strands left.  No, I'm just intrigued that someone who doesn't know Greek thinks it significant to know the Greek word which an English word translates.  Would it be any more significant if it were in Inuit?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 92
Chris Lohroff | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 5:40 PM

It wouldn't matter WHAT the word was. This is simply a way to mark the occurrences of the word MacArther is referring to in his book, and when I come across the word it's a reminder to think about what the word really means. What I don't appreciate is the presumption that you know better than I do what has and hasn't been helpful for me. That seems like the height of arrogance to me, and that, is indeed NOT helpful.

Posts 92
Chris Lohroff | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 5:48 PM

Sorry for getting my wig in a twist...

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 6:09 PM

Chris Lohroff:

Sorry for getting my wig in a twist...

Chris - in time you will learn that George is our forum curmudgeon. - and a rather lovable one. So your correct, there is no need to get upset with him. MJ

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 6:36 PM

MJ. Smith:
Chris - in time you will learn that George is our forum curmudgeon. - and a rather lovable one. So your correct, there is no need to get upset with him. MJ

It simply goes against the grain to attempt to change what an author (or translator) has written.  It's not ours to make it say what we wish it to say.  Putting a note at that location is another matter.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 92
Chris Lohroff | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 6:49 PM

I understand your point George. The main point of the book Slave is that the translators got it wrong. Marking the text was simply a way to undo that. You should read it. It's very curmudgeony.

Posts 117
Lionel B Dyck | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 8:13 PM

I sent a note to the Crossway folks asking if there were plans to change the text in a future revision of the ESV and was told they had changed servant to bondservant where it made more sense but they had not plans to change it to slave.

imho slave makes sense and trying to be politically correct is not something that should apply to the Bible as the Bible is always 100% completely correct.  John MacArthur is much more eloquent than I could ever be on that.

I did not anticipate the range of responses or the depth of emotions that I would raise by my simple question.

your brother in Christ

Lionel

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2011 8:58 PM

Because the variety of forum posters is so broad, it is easy to hit emotional buttons without a clue as to why. From my personal perspective phrases like "politically correct" and "translators got it wrong" are phrases that evoke an instant "prove it" response. On the other hand, the  "translators chose to emphasize x over y by translating it as z" gets me to listen.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2011 2:32 AM

Lionel B Dyck:

I sent a note to the Crossway folks asking if there were plans to change the text in a future revision of the ESV and was told they had changed servant to bondservant where it made more sense but they had not plans to change it to slave.

imho slave makes sense

well, more or less you are saying that you (or the teachers you listen to, like JMA) are better translators than the ESV translation committee shock-ful of seasoned, conservative scholars. Same goes for all other translations that don't use "slave".  To me it's clear that this might rise some responses from people who are less convinced.

It might be that there isn't even a right or wrong answer to this question, since "slave" conveys a number of meanings to different people. When Paul says "I am a slave of Jesus", some might hear "I once was a slave of the devil but now Jesus has redeemed me and I now serve him, halleluya!" others might hear "Jesus is my Lord and he has the ultimate right to decide what I do and what is right or wrong for me" still others might hear "Jesus is a brutal master that destroys all my self-worth, punishes me at whim and for things I wasn't able to avoid". The word "slave" raises theological and cognitive aspects as well as emotional ones - and some listeners may even be unable to follow Paul's writing or a sermon because this word spins them off in their head into sequences of "Uncle Tom's cabin"  or whatever.

I think translators need to be very aware of the aspect of "doulos" or its Hebrew counterpart that the author was trying to refer to, and then wisely choose what English (or German...) word to select to convey the meaning as best as possible. When a text speaks of human beings sold on a market, "slave" may work well. Whether "slave" conveys the right meaning when somebody sells his work labour to another for a limited period of time in order to get rid of debts, this may be different (or not),  whereas the aspect of serving another (and in the context: freely out of love or thankfulness) may much better be reflected by "servant". 

Just my thoughts on this.

Mick     

Edited: PS I am thankful for Logos to be able to see various translations as well as the Greek text to understand better the choices the translators made - because sometimes there is more to think over than meets the eye.

 

 

 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 10775
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2011 6:59 AM

Good points, NewbieMick (and not disagreeing with Lionel). The same english word indeed means things to different people.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 117
Lionel B Dyck | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2011 7:54 AM

I mean no disrespect.  I am a humble follower/slave of Yshua and while not seminary trained and without knowledge of original language I must trust those who do and when I learn something such as this I want to make sure I don't forget it (senior moments seem to occur due to short term memory failures on my part). I am sure the translators of the NASB, KJV, NKJV, ESV, etc had a good reason to use servant/bondservant rather than slave however the term slave is more meaningful to me as it indicates that I am not a paid/volunteer employee (servant) to the Lord but I am HIS as HE has purchased me - I am no longer a slave to sin who is a master who desires my death and eternal damnation, but am a slave of a wonderful loving master who calls me HIS child.

John MacArthur pointed out in his book that other languages in which the Bible has been translated have used the term slave rather than servant if that helps.  No one knows why this was done as there are no notes as there was to the Continental Congress when preparing the Declaration of Independence or the Constitutional Convention that prepared the Constitution.  Perhaps it is because of the pain and embarassment of slavery that haunts the English speaking world to this day. Was slavery any different then or at the time of Christ?  Probably not as captives were still sold into slavery and there were evil/bad masters and good/great masters in both times.

I hope I'm making sense.

ybic

Lionel

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