Change/Replace text within a book ?

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Lionel B Dyck | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2011 8:01 AM

I found this which is a good summary - I don't see a date but suspect is preceeds John macArthurs work:

http://www.slideshare.net/larosa217/slaves-for-christ

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2011 2:09 PM

Thanks. Definitely thought-provoking.I'm still bemused by the characterization as "politically correct" when I see no connection to political correctness as I understand it. But I do understand what aspects of meaning are lost (and gained) by translations such as servant or indentured servant vs. slave.There appears tp be a solid (but not compelling) argument for the translation "slave".

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2011 3:58 PM

MJ. Smith:

Thanks. Definitely thought-provoking.I'm still bemused by the characterization as "politically correct" when I see no connection to political correctness as I understand it. But I do understand what aspects of meaning are lost (and gained) by translations such as servant or indentured servant vs. slave.There appears tp be a solid (but not compelling) argument for the translation "slave".

Flip through your Lexicons for the word. Then look at the actual translation choices. I am not sure what motivates the slowness to use slave and rather use "servant" (politically correct-whatever that means, keep with traditions of older translations, avoid allusions to American slavery, etc). But it is odd that it seems when looking at my Lexicons and extrabiblical uses, there seems to be no reason to translate it anything other than slave every single time.

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2011 5:54 PM

Jacob Hantla:
Flip through your Lexicons for the word. Then look at the actual translation choices. I am not sure what motivates the slowness to use slave

I am not sufficiently knowledgeable in Greek to make an informed choice. I only know enough Greek to follow the argument in an informed manner. What I see is an issue where scholars who have that knowledge have made different choices for supportable reasons. I can also see reasons where slave may not have the appropriate connotation - it negates free choice and fails to carry the possibility of debt-repayment

As for Logos text comparison, it appears to show that my top Bibles are evenly divided on the issue. (Since one of my top 5 is JPS, my top 5 can be evenly divided in Greek.Wink)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 19 2011 1:07 AM

Chris Lohroff:

G1402 and G4889 have doulos (G1401) as their root.  As I recall, H5650 is translated as doulos in the Septuagint, although I don't recall my source for this.  I believe MacArthur mentioned that in his book but I can't say for sure.

That was my thinking.  Am I off base?  My intent was not to render the actual Greek, but to remind myself when I'm reading that this passage relates to the type of service and commitment discussed in the book.

Observation: Strong's Greek word 1402 is a verb, which is a cognate of δοῦλος (doulos), slave.  Some # 1402 usages are participles that have verbal and noun aspects (e.g. Titus 2:3).  Appears visual filter replaces some verbs (e.g. enslave, enslaved) with a noun (doulos).

For screen capture, choose to display Greek lemma transliterated in ESV (to show doulos).  In a floating window, searched for <strongs+g = Strong's Greek #1401> OR <strongs+g = Strong's Greek #4889> to highlight δοῦλος (doulos) and σύνδουλος (syndoulos) in Matthew 24.  By the way, the "ho" preceding doulos and syndoulos in Matthew 24 is the Greek definite article ("the"), a finger pointer.  In Matthew 24:45, personally right clicked on servant, clicked lemma, then clicked my Top preferred lexicon: "The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament (LXGRCANLEX)" that includes cognate words plus Louw-Nida semantic domain numbering.  Another right click on servant, clicked Greek Strong's, then clicked Enhanced Strong's Lexicon (ESL).  For screen capture, ESL was too verbose, so used parallel resources to switch to Strong's "A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek New Testament and The Hebrew Bible":

Looking at cognate words for "δοῦλος (doulos), slave" in LXGRCANLEX, saw corresponding entries in Strong's concise dictionary: from 1396 to 1402.  Also noted Strong's 1396, 1398, and 1402 are verbs.  The other LXGRCANLEX cognate words correspond to Strong's 2615 (καταδουλόω), 3787 (ὀφθαλμοδουλία), and 4889 (σύνδουλος).

Strong's 2615 (verb) includes preposition prefix: κατα (down: from, upon, OR along).

Strong's 4889 (noun) includes preposition prefix σύν (together with).

Logos user voice # 23 => http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/682641-stem-cognate-search?ref=title is a request for Stem/Cognate search, which would be helpful for this discussion.

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