Custom lectionaries ok?

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2009 8:47 AM

Bradley Grainger:
I assume you mean timelines? Smile

Um, yeah - that too.  You're Timeliness is just fine.  Thanks for that quote Bradley.

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2009 10:29 AM

Re: All Saints

In the RCL we got both.  It wasn't clear which readings were for which, but they all were there.

However, navigation through the lectionary is still awkward at times.  As Dale D pointed out, the Lectionary feature is still much more useful in 3.0 than 4.0, even if they are books in 4.0.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2009 2:30 PM

Damian McGrath:
Then, there is the question of who is providing the proofing. On November 1st we were offered the readings for the 31st Sunday in Ordinary Time and not the readings for All Saints. 

I agree that there are still some problems - but the design approach is much more solid. It appears that if the data was supplied it will handle the various antiphons, Liturgy of the Hours etc. I'm a little over half way done with the Jewish Torah reading cycle.  If it can be handled in a reasonable manner (note reasonable not perfect), Logos will at least be far enough along to make it worth my time to convert other lectionaries into spread sheets.

And trust me, I will needle them on errors I think they should be able to handle. Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Monroe R Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2009 5:03 PM

Where is the RCL? I cannot find it and even if I could, I can't figure out how to change to homepage from the Catholic Lectionary.

Rich+

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Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2009 5:12 PM

Monroe R Miller:

Where is the RCL? I cannot find it and even if I could, I can't figure out how to change to homepage from the Catholic Lectionary.

Monroe,

1. Open your library

2. Type title:"revised common lectionary" in your navigation bar

3. Right click the appropriate entry and select "prioritize this resource"

4. Restart Logos

 

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Louis St. Hilaire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 11:15 AM

Don Awalt:
Second, for example Ascension Sunday,  there are two sets of readings for which the reader picks the appropriate one for their diocese, as some parts of the country celebrate the Seventh Sunday of Easter, and other parts (most actually) celebrate Ascension this Sunday. The Logos Catholic lectionary does not have Sunday Ascension readings. This is because the bishops have the authority to change feast days in their own diocese.

Don, the option for celebrating Ascension on Sunday is included in the 4.0 Catholic Lectionary.

Moreover, as Martha notes, some of the problems with variations are eased a bit with the 4.0 format. Although dates are given, the Contents Pane is simply organized by Year and Sunday/Feast, so you can easily find where you want to go. We don't currently have data for votives (see below), but I think we could easily integrate them into the 4.0 book by placing them at the end.

Most of the limitations of our Catholic Lectionary (no psalms, no daily lectionary, lack of feasts including All Saints--hence the wrong readings for Sunday, Nov. 1--etc.) are due to limitations of the data set we have. We're still hoping to get a more complete set. I would have to defer to someone more knowlegable about the rights issues involved, but suffice it to say that although this data is available on web (and from several users), Logos is a bit more careful about just grabbing such material and making it our own. I'll do some follow up on this to see if we can work with the USCCB to get more complete data (or permission to use what's out there).

Also, not to contradict the boss, but even if we don't have top liturgical experts in Bellingham, Logos has at least two former Benedictine novices on staff. I hope we're not total slouches Smile.

All kidding aside, please don't think your concerns fall on deaf (or tone-deaf ... or even psalm-tone-deaf) ears.

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DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 11:28 AM

NJB and CEV available in Logos...

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 1:07 PM

I think that in evaluating Logos 4 implementation of lectionaries we need to keep in mind that there are two separate issues/resources:

  1. The lectionary which provides the appropriate readings by liturgical date (even here one often needs to go to other sources for global options)
  2. The ordo which links the lectionary to calendar date where much of the complexity lies - what liturgical dates bump other liturgical dates under what circumstances.

The Lectionary should be, I believe, complete and accurate ... and carefully identified i.e. not just "Roman Catholic Lectionary" but specifically Australian, Canadian, ... so that people are not misled. Ordos, on the other hand, should be on a "good enough" basis - if we need greater accuracy we can purchase other software and add a shortcut (when shortcuts actually work all the time. Smile). We always need to go back to a true lectionary site anyway to check for incipits, etc.

The only real problem that I have found with the current lectionary implementation is on the attaching of notes.

 

Choice in window

Reference

Selection

Bible

on citation (general)

on text (specific)

Lectionary

calendar date (specific)

liturgical date (general)

Sorry - cut and paste had some problems.

I've held off creating notes on the lectionary hoping that this inconsistency will be fixed.

I understand Logos' concerns regarding copyrights although I would be surprised if the citations (opposed to the texts) are copyright in any major denominations. What I think we need to do is:

  1. Get from Logos the definition of public knowledge - in some other contexts I know if the same information is available and unattributed in three sources, it is considered public knowledge.  How that translates to web sources ....?
  2. Provide Logos with additional table information that is clearly out of copyright and see how it is handled.
  3. Secondarily, have the lectionary specify a permissible translation (US: NAB; Canada:NRSV(?))

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 3:02 PM

MJ. Smith:
have the lectionary specify a permissible translation (US: NAB; Canada:NRSV(?))

I'm not sure what you mean by this Martha?

The lectionaries are already keyed to particular translations. The Catholic Lectionary is keyed to the NAB. This ensures that the pericopae are correct (right click on a reference in the Lectionary to see NAB clearly displayed).

 

Wrt the Catholic Lectionary pericopae, copyright is simply not a problem.

The first thing that I would do if I were the Logos person in charge of Lectionaries would be to contact Fr Felix Just of Loyola and read all the information on his site concerning lectionaries (http://catholic-resources.org/)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 4:05 PM

When I click on the Lectionary, it pops up in my favorite translation not the NAB for the USA or the NRSV for Canada or ... It would be more accurate for the translation being used to be specified on each citation so that differences in versification does not lead you to the wrong boundaries. I am particular aware of this at the moment because I'm working with lectionaries based on the JPS (I think).

This is particularly interesting in the USA lectionary immediately preceding our current one - rubrics allowed the use of 4 translations.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 4:16 PM

MJ. Smith:

When I click on the Lectionary, it pops up in my favorite translation not the NAB for the USA or the NRSV for Canada or ... It would be more accurate for the translation being used to be specified on each citation so that differences in versification does not lead you to the wrong boundaries. I am particular aware of this at the moment because I'm working with lectionaries based on the JPS (I think).

This is particularly interesting in the USA lectionary immediately preceding our current one - rubrics allowed the use of 4 translations.

I'm glad that it uses my preferred translation because the NJB is the closest I can come to the JB.

But, it follows the versification of the system default (the NAB in the Catholic Lectionary case):

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 4:22 PM

Damian McGrath:
I'm glad that it uses my preferred translation

Me, too, though it's because I don't particularly like the NAB. Thanks for showing me where the reference base is - I'd not thought to click.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Louis St. Hilaire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 8:38 PM

MJ. Smith:
The Lectionary should be, I believe, complete and accurate ... and carefully identified i.e. not just "Roman Catholic Lectionary" but specifically Australian, Canadian, ... so that people are not misled.

Someone from outside the States could correct me, but, as it stands, with only the Sunday data and the ability to choose your own translation, there's very little that's specifically American about our Catholic Lectionary. If we're ever able to add readings from the sanctoral calendar, we may have to add appropriate qualifications.

As for being complete, please keep in mind that what we currently have is simply derived from the 3.0 lectionary reports, which usually have data derived from charts of readings--more a quick reference and devotional aid for getting Sunday's readings (and studying them in Logos) than an authoritative or exhaustive source. The 4.0 format gives us much more flexibility, so we certainly have the capability for much more, but a "real" lectionary, as complete as a print edition, and organized by propers and commons, would probably be a heftier project for us with fewer people who understand how to use it. (Not saying we can't dream ... just keeping expectations realistic.)

MJ. Smith:
The only real problem that I have found with the current lectionary implementation is on the attaching of notes.

I'm afraid I'm not quite following you. In the context menu, the "Reference" is giving the current active data type reference. Bibles are indexed by Bible reference (Bible data type), lectionaries are indexed by date (YearMonthDay data type). "Selection" gives the text you have highlighted. You're wanting to attach a note that appears at every instance of, say, "Second Sunday of Advent" just as you might do for a verse in the Bible?

Damian McGrath:
Wrt the Catholic Lectionary pericopae, copyright is simply not a problem.

I'm not quite so sure. I'm no expert, but I don't see any particular reason why the substance of an arrangement of scripture readings, such as the Ordo Lectionum Missae, wouldn't be subject the normal laws ruling intellectual property, even if, in practice, the information is shared quite freely. At any rate, I have confirmed with our Publisher Relations department (who are quite knowledgable about such things) that we're seeking permissions to more complete data for the Catholic Lectionary.

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Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 9:25 PM

Louis St. Hilaire:
Someone from outside the States could correct me, but, as it stands, with only the Sunday data and the ability to choose your own translation, there's very little that's specifically American about our Catholic Lectionary..

Louis, some of the pericopae vary. Did you look at the site to which I referred you of Fr Just.

Louis St. Hilaire:
As for being complete,

We have different solemnities...

Louis St. Hilaire:
As for being complete...

Obviously, without Psalms / Canticles, they are not complete.

Louis St. Hilaire:
I'm no expert, but I don't see any particular reason why the substance of an arrangement of scripture readings, such as the Ordo Lectionum Missae, wouldn't be subject the normal laws ruling intellectual property, even if, in practice, the information is shared quite freely. At any rate, I have confirmed with our Publisher Relations department (who are quite knowledgable about such things) that we're seeking permissions to more complete data for the Catholic Lectionary.

This is true. But, until the last years of JPII, all documents in their original form (not the translations) were released with no copyright claim. It's very possible that the American version, because its pericopae vary from the universal calendar may be under copyright (or the USCCB may chose to exercise their rights under copyright laws).

 

If you need someone to contact wrt these issues, I can refer you. One of my close priest friends was a member of the International Committee on English in the Liturgy until its unfortunate demise. 

 

 

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Louis St. Hilaire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 11:16 PM

Damian,

Thanks for the clarification. I'm familiar with Fr. Just's site, but haven't specifically reviewed his information on regional differences. I mainly had calendar and translation differences in mind, but the adjustments to the selections made by the US bishops would, of course, make our data specifically American at those points.

As to solemnities, most differences there won't become an issue until some of the holes in our data are filled ...

I'll follow up on rights to the universal Ordo. I'm not sure if this was precluded for some reason or if, working in an American context, we just didn't think to pursue it.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 11:57 PM

Louis St. Hilaire:
there's very little that's specifically American about our Catholic Lectionary.

Damian correctly pointed out that the basic lectionary is approved at the "National Conference of Bishops" level. I think you may wish to support the Roman typico lectionary and those of the major countries of your customers. The local and religious orders, when provided to you, should be simple, partial overlays to the standard. For details between US and Canadian see http://catholic-resources.org/Lectionary/Differences-Canada-USA.htm

Louis St. Hilaire:
You're wanting to attach a note that appears at every instance of, say, "Second Sunday of Advent" just as you might do for a verse in the Bible?

Exactly, if you look at resources such as the Lectionary Reflections sold by Logos, the primary method of indexing is by liturgical date. This is the primary item to which notes would be attached. For a few things, such as homilies, the actual calendar date is important but it is, in general, secondary.

Louis St. Hilaire:
I don't see any particular reason why the substance of an arrangement of scripture readings, such as the Ordo Lectionum Missae, wouldn't be subject the normal laws ruling intellectual property

I agree you should double-check.  However, it is common in such materials for the published edition to specifically allow reuse of the tables while retaining the copyright on the actual translation (with any additional editting for the lectionary). There is also a fair amount of lectionary material especially in the Lutheran and Anglican traditions in which any copyright claim has long since expired.

Louis St. Hilaire:
lectionaries are indexed by date (YearMonthDay data type)

This statement concerns me, if I understand it correctly. To support historic lectionaries (unfortunately, the best source of these is now off-line) only liturgical dates are really applicable. Obviously, I wouldn't expect this to be linked into the lectionary home page display, but I would expect to have them behave as lectionaries in the library.

Eventually I would like the lectionary to include all the Scripture of a particular liturgical day - i.e. the antiphons and the Liturgy of the Hours. My dream, which I believe the current Logos approach supports, is to be able to have the passage guide give me the use of a passage throughout history in the major liturgical traditions. I am anxiously awaiting the PBB tool for such use.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 1:10 AM

Louis St. Hilaire:
At any rate, I have confirmed with our Publisher Relations department (who are quite knowledgable about such things) that we're seeking permissions to more complete data for the Catholic Lectionary.

I would hope that you are also working to bring us:

  • The Moravaian Lectionary http://www.moravian.org/believe/lectionary.pdf - an independent lectionary tradition
  • RCL Weekday lectionary (Augsburg Fortress publishes CCT text)
  • Alternative Paschaltide readings http://www.englishtexts.org/quo.html is a good test of partial overlays
  • Orthodox Kellia readings http://www.orthodox.net/ustav/lectionary-for-the-kellia.pdf is a good test of day of the week not calendar or liturgical day lectionary (or reading plan) ... this I'm fairly sure is so old as to be out of copyright. Note that these divisions were marked in the Scripture somewhat like parashot
  • 1922 tables for Morning and Evening Prayer (Church of England) www.eskimo.com/~lhowell/bcp1662/info/calendar.html

If Logos can handle all of these, it can handle anything I can think of to throw at it. Note, I would expect only the first two to appear linked to calendar date. Thanks with your patience with me on these issues.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Louis St. Hilaire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 9:26 AM

MJ. Smith:
This statement concerns me, if I understand it correctly. To support historic lectionaries (unfortunately, the best source of these is now off-line) only liturgical dates are really applicable. Obviously, I wouldn't expect this to be linked into the lectionary home page display, but I would expect to have them behave as lectionaries in the library.

You might be reading too much into what I'm saying, which is only that the lectionary resources we have use calendar dates to support finding the current reading (or next week's reading, etc.) so that they work somewhat like the 3.0 lectionary report. These resources are organized primarily for that use rather than the sort of comparative liturgical study you seem to have in mind. There's no technical reason we couldn't make a resource organized like a print lectionary or otherwise, but it would be a different animal.

Thanks for the suggestions for other lectionaries to look into.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 11:33 AM

Louis St. Hilaire:
There's no technical reason we couldn't make a resource organized like a print lectionary or otherwise, but it would be a different animal.

This is what I feared  - ordo and lectionary are still viewed as a single entity. It concerns me in that most likely it duplicates information (increasing opportunities for error) and increases maintenance over time. I do understand the advantages of the combined form.And if my concerns are accurate, the problems will likely be invisible to the user, so kudos for the vast improvement on functionality.  Coffee (hey, after a new release I'm sure you need a cup from ______)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Stephen Egge | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 8 2009 1:02 PM

I would like to see the RCL with DAILY support including all 3 readings and psalms

It should also incude alternate celebrations that can occur at times of feast days

I would hope that the conditional logic available in the programs could handle this and a lection ary based on the "rules" be developed.

As it is now .. I don't use it (no daily readings .. no psalms on Sunday) and just go to the USCCB site.   http://www.usccb.org/nab/today.shtml  But would love to have the resource correctly done in Logos 4.0

 

Steve Egge

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