What about the graphical query?

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This post has 68 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 3
Cooper Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 3 2009 10:02 AM

I use Logos primarily for original language study (although the great prices to upgrade to Platinum have me seriously considering electronic commentaries as well).  I really like the Graphical Query tool available in version 3.  While reading a review of version 4 online at:

http://www.seektheholy.com/2009/11/02/introducing-logos-4/

I found this: "Also missing are the Remote Library tool and the Graphical Query. Logos has said they do not intend to reproduce these in version 4 since other, better alternatives are available."

The Remote Library Tool doesn't bother me, but as for the graphical query....

What alternatives are available for logos 4?  Is it the syntax searches?  What about the resources that are not arranged syntactically and just morphologically (like the LXX, Church Fathers, Philo, Josephus), can they be searched using complex relationships between multiple words?

The upgraded product looks very user friendly and the changes appear to be well worth the wait.  I am wondering how complex morphological searches on multiple words in the original languages can be completed without the graphical query.  Thanks.

Posts 687
Jon | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 10:38 AM

This is true, there is no plan to reintroduce graphical queries at this stage. The morphologial search (like all the other searches) takes advantage of a more sophisticated textual search engine using operators like AND, OR, NOT, BEFORE 2 WORDS etc. You can type greek or hebrew by entering g: or h: and typing phonetically. Morphological information is entered with @, this can be attached to a lemma, or just by itself.

For an entirely arbitrary example:

"typing: (g:en BEFORE 3 words g:christos@NDS) OR (g:en before 3 words g:theos@NDS)" will result in:

(lemma:ἐν BEFORE 3 words lemma:Χριστός@NDS) OR (lemma:ἐν BEFORE 3 words lemma:θεός@NDS)

It's quite neat, but it is taking a while to get used to the syntax of the search queries; any of the beta crowd remember other operators you can use here?

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 10:47 AM

SamuelCooperFranklinSmith:
The upgraded product looks very user friendly and the changes appear to be well worth the wait.  I am wondering how complex morphological searches on multiple words in the original languages can be completed without the graphical query

First the good news. You can install Logos4, without uninstalling Logos3 and continue to use both programs, even at the same time! So, you do not loose your ability to use the Graphical Query tool.

But so few people actually used that tool, that Logos did not carry it into L4.

As far as other Greek tools and their data structure, you'd have to ask Bradley Grainger (I think, sp?). L4 does have a reverse interlinear LXX and a rev.int. Church Fathers (by Lake) that has all that data, if I understand your question and the data correctly. I don't know about Philo or Josephus, but I wouldn't put it past the guys in Bellingham to come come out with a rev int of those as well some day.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 3
Cooper Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 10:55 AM

Under version 4 is there no way to do more complex searches like forcing one element to "Agree in Case/Number/Gender" with another element (regardless of what the case/number/gender is - they just have to agree)  that is available now under the graphical query?  I suppose it could become one really, really long OR statement where all possible agreeements are manually included.  That could become a little cumbersome.

I know I could always keep v. 3, but if v. 4 has similar/comparable/better alternatives, then I can get rid of v.3 once I get v.4.  Thank you for your help.  It is comforting to know that some sort of morphological searching is still around - I hadn't heard of any on the reviews as of yet.

If anyone else knows of the operators, that would be really helpful too.  And the necessary order for various parts of speech.  

Posts 418
davidphillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 10:55 AM

Yes,

No more graphical query. The morphological search is very powerful though, as are syntax searches! I'd recommend starting to learn how to use syntax searches for more advanced queries, and morphological searches for more simple ones. If you have questions about syntax searches, please post them! We'll gladly help you work through them Smile.

As for other morphological search operators:

@ brings up the morphology box where you can pick your morphological criteria.

g: and h: can be used to enter Greek and Hebrew as Jon mentioned.

You can also just use lemma: and then type in transliterated English. You can also use Greek and Hebrew keyboards to type directly in Greek and Hebrew (http://www.logos.com/support/downloads/keyboards)

AND

OR

BEFORE # words (note the captial and lowercase letters)

WITHIN # words (note the captial and lowercase letters)

 EDIT - Samuel,

Syntax searches allow you to force agreement with different search elements. I was apparently one of the "few" who used graphical queries frequently. I was disappointed at first, but have found myself able to do everything I want with the morphological search and syntax searches. If you have a specific question about how to search for something, post it here! There are plenty of people who will help you work through it and learn how to run the searches you want without the graphical query.

Posts 3
Cooper Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 11:17 AM

David,

What does the "EDIT" mean?

I also used the graphical queries - and found them very useful and powerful (there were at least two of us) .  I'm sure that as I learn the syntax searches, I will take you up on the offer for help.  I prefered the graphs, because in most cases, morphology is in less doubt than syntax.  The graphical query could sidestep some of the subjective elements that are taken into account with the syntax Bibles (though, at times, even parsing can be subjective!)  But, alas, the majority have spoken.  Not enough demand for the graphical query Broken Heart.  And I resolve to change with the times.  And they made for such a pretty display too!  Is there any way to find out more about the syntax searches available for v. 4?  I don't see any videos (yet).  I assume they are on there way.

Thanks again.

Posts 418
davidphillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 11:24 AM

Samuel,

EDIT means I posted my posted, then decided I wanted to add something. You can click "more" and then "edit" to edit a recent post. I added in "EDIT" to make it clear I was making an addition to my post.

Yes, I agree with the subjective nature of syntax. However, the more I use the searches, the more I get used to working within that framework (and again, the morphological search is a great option!). There are a number of blog postings related to syntax searches (http://blog.logos.com/archives/syntax/) that may be helpful. Though they relate to 3.0, it may be a helpful place to start. What was most helpful to me was to open up a syntax database (opentext.org clause analysis for example) and look at a verse and try to mimic a construction with a syntax search. Try, try, try! And ask, ask, ask.

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 11:29 AM

SamuelCooperFranklinSmith:
What does the "EDIT" mean?

It means he "edited" his post after initially posting it to add the following information.

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

Posts 3
Cooper Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 12:04 PM

Thanks,

Because of the caps like the others, I thought it was some additional operator - I was intrigued.  Editing the post makes far more sense.  Time for me to do some reading to figure out about syntax searches!

By the way, which syntactically organized Bible do you prefer?  Opentext or Lexham?  Is Lexham the complete NT in v.4?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 12:24 PM

Jon Rumble:
You can type greek or hebrew by entering g: or h: and typing phonetically.

To me this means International Phonetic Alphabet - which I don't think you mean. "Which transliterations do you support?" is my real question.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 418
davidphillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 12:43 PM

Samuel,

The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament is still incomplete. It currently contains everything except Mark-Acts.

I am most used to Opentext.org, but there is a new database in 4.0, Cascadia. Mike Aubrey (who is getting his PhD in all this stuff, or something like that. He's really smart and syntax savvy) is pretty excited about the Cascadia resource (http://evepheso.wordpress.com/2009/11/02/logos-4-is-finally-here/). I haven't used it much yet.

They all tag the texts differently, and from least specfic to most specific, the order is Lexham - Opentext.org - Cascadia. If you're interested in searching for things like participle clauses or adverbial clauses, lexham is the database. If you're more interested in objects, subjects, and more specific tagging, the other two databases are the way to go. The best I can say is spend time looking at them to see the differences.

MJ,

I can't exactly answer "which transliterations do you support," but it is a pretty standard Greek and Hebrew transliteration scheme (except for aleph and ayin in Hebrew, which still needs work).

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 2:16 PM

MJ. Smith:
"Which transliterations do you support?" is my real question.

We support several popular systems. For the most part, "what you think would work" does.

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 2:53 PM

SamuelCooperFranklinSmith:
By the way, which syntactically organized Bible do you prefer?  Opentext or Lexham?  Is Lexham the complete NT in v.4?

Hi Samuel.

On syntactically annotated New Testaments, we do have three (as is mentioned in another response to your post). They really vary as to your purposes.

Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament: This is not complete yet, but is getting very close. I'm hoping to get the data for Mark integrated perhaps even today so it will be available with the next major resource update, assuming all goes well. That will leave Luke/Acts (and a first pass of Luke is complete, we expect Acts by the end of the year) and John (which we expect to have a first pass on hopefully this month, November, if all goes well). If you're coming from a perspective of sentence diagramming, and more interested in examining on a passage-by-passage basis (than doing comprehensive searching through the whole NT for syntactic patterns/phenomena) then this one is probably your friend -- particularly the "Expansions and Annotations" resource.

OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek NT: This has material for the whole Greek NT. Very heirarchical, with a very limited and unique vocabulary. You need to bend your mind a bit to get into it (think of 'relators' instead of prepositional phrases modifying nouns, for example) but its simplicity in this aspect can be a virtue.

Cascadia Syntax Graphs of the New Testament: This is new with Logos4. It uses familiar terminology like "clause", "verbless clause", "verb phrase", "prepositional phrase" in its analysis of the NT. Hierarchical, but a bit more flexible and approachable than OpenText.org. Personally, I like this one a lot and it has supplanted OpenText.org as my go-to syntax database. Why? Because it uses familiar terminology, and because I think it is more flexible to search.

Hope it helps you.

 

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 1300
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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 2:58 PM

MJ. Smith:

Jon Rumble:
You can type greek or hebrew by entering g: or h: and typing phonetically.

To me this means International Phonetic Alphabet - which I don't think you mean. "Which transliterations do you support?" is my real question.

Hi M.J.

Note that if you're in Windows, you can skip the whole g: or h: thing and just type Unicode if you want. All you need is a Unicode keyboard installed. I do this often; I have ALT+SHIFT set up as a hotkey to cycle available Unicode keyboards. This is operating system level functionality, so it just works. Logos has Unicode keyboards for Greek and Hebrew (and other funky languages) available at: http://www.logos.com/support/downloads/keyboards.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 3:03 PM

Rick Brannan:
Personally, I like this one a lot and it has supplanted OpenText.org as my go-to syntax database.

Rick....interesting...I hope that lots of technical videos are coming...

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 3
Cooper Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 3:50 PM

Rick... thanks for your rundown of the NT databases.  That is really helpful.

 

Are there any kind of syntactically organized databases for the Hebrew, or just morphology?  I haven't really done much with OT morpholoy or syntax searching, but I have a feeling that I'm going to do so soon.  

 

I definitely agree with Robert.  Some videos about the new database would be great!

Posts 725
Chris Elford | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 4:02 PM

SamuelCooperFranklinSmith:

Rick... thanks for your rundown of the NT databases.  That is really helpful.

 

Are there any kind of syntactically organized databases for the Hebrew, or just morphology?  I haven't really done much with OT morpholoy or syntax searching, but I have a feeling that I'm going to do so soon.  

 

I definitely agree with Robert.  Some videos about the new database would be great!

Andersen-Forbes is Hebrew and they have templates just like for Syntax searches in Greek. All are editable. I find the whole thing much easier to understand and use.

Chris

Posts 418
davidphillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 4:03 PM

Rick,

Thanks for the detailed information about the databases. That's very helpful! I have a question about the g: and h: thing.

Rick Brannan:
Note that if you're in Windows, you can skip the whole g: or h: thing and just type Unicode if you want. All you need is a Unicode keyboard installed. I do this often; I have ALT+SHIFT set up as a hotkey to cycle available Unicode keyboards.

I normally use the logos keyboards to type, but have become fond of g: h: and lemma:. However, there is still a problem using h: or lemma: for words starting with aleph and ayin. Using ' and " doesn't work for anything more than 1 letter, and trying to start with the vowel sound gives inconsistent results. I was wondering if this was being worked on. It's not a big deal, but would be nice.

Posts 648
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 4:07 PM

Is GRAMCORD gone from Logos 4 too?

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 4:10 PM

JeremyEllis:

Is GRAMCORD gone from Logos 4 too?

Not as far as I know. I still have the NA27 with GRAMMCORD and McReynolds Interlinear.

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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