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Posts 50
Ron Newberry | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 3 2009 11:52 AM

Has anyone used the handout guide and what did you think of it?

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Halo Hound | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 11:57 AM

Thomas...what do you think?

Posts 435
R. Mansfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 11:57 AM

There ought to be an easy way to change the translation on the first page to a different one without having to back out.

In the white space at the end of the last column, there ought to be the option to add the word "Notes:" or even to add in your own information.

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Chris Elford | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 12:00 PM

Ron Newberry:

Has anyone used the handout guide and what did you think of it?

Handouts are a work in progress. This would be a good place to put suggestions that Logos developers can use to help them.

Some people (Thomas do I hear your Amen?) are not pleased with them at this stage. Let's not just rag on them. Think of how to improve them.

Chris

Posts 155
James Brown | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 12:01 PM

Philip Spitzer:
Thomas...what do you think?

Philip... please don't get Thomas started on the handouts... it sends him into the "Cloud." I think I read somewhere that Thomas was praying that his handouts would get lost in the "Cloud." or was it that he was hoping his handouts would fall out of the clouds like manna... all the same... best to say that the Handouts are a work in progress... love the clippings file!!!!

Jim

Posts 106
Kenneth Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 12:05 PM

R. Mansfield:

There ought to be an easy way to change the translation on the first page to a different one without having to back out.

In the white space at the end of the last column, there ought to be the option to add the word "Notes:" or even to add in your own information.

 

You can add your own information. Click the link "Add Blank Item" and type in what you want. You can also leave it blank and drag it in order to leave spaces where you want.

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Halo Hound | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 12:06 PM

James Brown:

Philip Spitzer:
Thomas...what do you think?

Philip... please don't get Thomas started on the handouts... it sends him into the "Cloud." I think I read somewhere that Thomas was praying that his handouts would get lost in the "Cloud." or was it that he was hoping his handouts would fall out of the clouds like manna... all the same... best to say that the Handouts are a work in progress... love the clippings file!!!!

Jim

Thomas only cares because he sees the potential. I just couldn't resist.There are a couple things that are a work in progress but I'm glad they released now. within a couple of months these works in progress will be further along and we will have an even better product then we have now, which is the best Bible software out there by far.

Clippings are great!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 12:29 PM

Ron Newberry:
Has anyone used the handout guide and what did you think of it?

This actually is a good base for something I already have in progress - a database of Bible study questions so that one can build one's own Bible Study. With it current functionality, it has limited personal use but great potential.

I've not yet tried to change the default style - the Logos selection has little aesthetic appeal.

I'd like the option to leave a wide right margin for people to enter notes. It may be currently possible - I haven't played with it that much.

Logos4catholics Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 1:20 PM

Philip Spitzer:

Thomas...what do you think?

Why Thank you Philp, I thought you'd never ask.

Handouts have progressed far since Beta 1. - but not far enough.  I might as well state my business and then let this be a permanent link.  Confused

Extraneous information

Initially as the beta testers all know, one of the worst problems was all the extraneous information that was added.  Thankfully this had improved on a major scale.   Type in a passage in 1 Timothy and you're no longer getting Jesus' family tree by default. 

Yay Tagging!  Yes

However, if I type in 1 Peter 1:22-2:3 I'm still getting "Flowers blossoming" "A body preserved in ash from MT Vesuvius" Cacao beans, Samara, Rice and lots of other unrelated items.  And these are what's automatically forced onto the page?  Now I have to try and get rid of them in order to put what I want on there.  1.  passage, and 1 crossword.  

Good luck!  You can't just drag it away, you have to replace it with a massive blank item  full of blank returns or delete them one by one.

Desperate for Optimization

Fortunately speed has improved, it only takes about 7-15 seconds to delete an item now - but that's still too slow.  Handouts need to be optimized.

Fixed Sizes

This one has shown up periodically in the beta Forum and it remains an issue.

Bob has already commented regarding resizing content:

We aren't going to offer manual editing of the document. A) It's a lot of code, and B) there are lots of better tools. (Word, Publisher, InDesign, Illustrator, Quark, etc.) The point is to make something quick and easy; if you want to be the graphic artist -- which is fine and legitimate -- we're the wrong tool..
--Handouts driving me crazy! - Beta Forums

I do understand his answer and I even accept it as it relates to resizing content. But I keep coming up with pictures that could use a good resizing. So I'm just putting this one in with a sigh of resignation.

Still Force Filling

Originally they had a checkbox that you had to tick/untick in order to remove or add an item.  The only problem is that every time you removed an item another would pop right back up in it's place.  Now they've done away with the tickbox and gave us a "grabby" by which we can reorder the forced information. but until you figure out how to add a blank item and then put blank lines in it you still can't just get rid of stuff without deleting them because something else will pop up in it's place.  Using a blank item full of blank lines to fix it is known as a kludge.

The single biggest key to fixing most of what's wrong with handouts is to not select anything by default.

  1. Do not automatically put anything on the page. Ever. 
  2. Do not force fill any page. Ever.

These very related issues are the majority of what's wrong with handouts.  Handouts should start with one blank page and a collection of stuff you can add on the left.  Then it should expand to as many pages as necessary to fit the stuff.

Let me say that one more time: Handouts should start with one Blank page and a collection of stuff you can add on the left.  Then it should expand to as many pages as necessary to fit the stuff. 

I feel that it is fundamentally a mistake to make me take information away by default.

They do not appropriately anticipate what I want on there.  Every handout I've created I've had to remove everything (Except the scripture passage) and then add what I wanted.  I just flat out don't believe these should be pre-filled. Sadly this isn't likely to change, because the Philosophy behind it according to Bob was that it would "always be ready to print." 

I contend that being full of the wrong information and requiring a kludge to fix it is NOT ready to print.  Always ready to print is NOT the same as full.  Flip it around, just because a page is full of information doesn't mean it's the right information.  Less is more.  A single word find and the passage should be enough but I have to create a blank section and add about a dozen lines to "make it ready to print."  Why not let blank be ready to print?  Then at least I can add what needs added.

In conclusion

Fix handouts:

  1. Never select anything by default.  Ever
  2. Never force fill a page.  Ever.
  3. Optimize, optimize, optimize.
  4. Fix printing for non-duplex printers. (In process)
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Halo Hound | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 1:23 PM

Thomas Black:
I might as well state my business and then let this be a permanent link.

Wow. Are you thinking of submitting that for your dissertation?

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 1:27 PM

Doctorate in whine-ology?

Posts 268
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 2:21 PM

Thomas,

I have spent the past couple of days trying to make a useful handout to no avail, this feature is not baked in my opinion.

  1. So far I can only make half a presentation because I can only have 4 pages.
  2. The page is clutered with a bunch of irrelevant information.
  3. Adding content is not as easy as it should be.
  4. Can't find the "undo" button.
  5. Formating is unpredictable and not easily to control.

If this is the final design, I will not be using this feature.

God bless you and keep you,
Ken

Note: From my perspective (I have been a SW Engineer for 30 years) - Logos 4 is not bad; though, it needs some work.

Technical SW ratings: not ready, not bad, works as intended, good, great, changes the world :)

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2009 2:59 PM

Ken I appreciate that feedback, it echo's everything I've been saying from the start.

  1. Good point, I only want one, but I can envision handing out a 10 pager on certain occasions.
  2. Yeah, you can drag it down (on the left side) to get it off the page, or right click to delete it.  However it does start out preloaded which is a mistake.
  3. I agree, do you have specific suggestions how this might be accomplished, maybe a mockup?  I know Logos listens, and with 30 years of experience you have some background for a good suggestion here.
  4. There isn't one. 
  5. Exactly.

 

Posts 268
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2009 6:01 AM

Thomas Black:

Ken I appreciate that feedback, it echo's everything I've been saying from the start.

I agree, do you have specific suggestions how this might be accomplished, maybe a mockup?  I know Logos listens, and with 30 years of experience you have some background for a good suggestion here.

I need to play with it some more and learn more about what is available in Logos 4 as a whole; I am also trying to take into consideration the vision of the developers (as described on the forums). So far, I don't have an exact recommendation; though, the wheels are turning (the little mouse in my head) :)

God bless you and keep you,
Ken

Posts 42
John A. Murphy, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2009 4:09 PM

I have been playing with handouts for the better part of the day as I was thinking of having an additional "more detailed" handout for those interested for my sermon on Sunday.  I too have a couple of suggestions:

1)  I agree with Thomas' dissertation - don't auto fill; but, DO have suggestions of related information.

2)  Allow for the formatting of the layout, to move things around on the handout.  I have the Scripture in one column and am trying to get the Sermon Notes fill-in in the other.  However, because they are automatically sized (even though I'm using a picture) I cannot get the columns to work.  So, I'm going to end up cutting and pasting if I ever put this together through another program.

3)  Allow the import of other pictures/diagrams for the handout.  So if I have a jpeg on my computer I can copy it in (for example: our churches logo art). 

God Bless!

John

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2009 6:31 AM

John,

I really like your suggestion for #3.  I don't at all mind the Logos icon on the bottom of the handouts, but it would sure be nice if the top left corner had our church's logo.

 

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2009 6:47 AM

I also agree with the melding of Thomas' post and John's #3 point...

 

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 116
Rev. Michael L. Burns | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2009 1:08 PM

Thomas,

I have enjoyed reading the comments and observations in this thread concerning the Handouts I especially liked the comments on unwanted content when creating a handout as well as adding and deleting content in the handout. My problem is somewhat different.For some reason, whenever I try to create a new Handout, the only content added is the Scripture passage and the Wordfind puzzle. Noyhinf else. Clicking add to add content shows none available. Any ideas?

Michael 

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2009 1:29 PM

When you click add to add the content you can then search by keyword or bible reference to find out what else is available. 

Also, have you finished indexing?  until you finish indexing not everything will show up.

Posts 116
Rev. Michael L. Burns | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 11:25 AM

Thomas,

I must be doing something wrong. For instance, I just tried again to create a handout, this time on Mark 11:12-19. The handout initually created contains only the scripture and a wordsearch puzzle. I clicked add to add new content and there was none shown initually. I typed Bethany in search box and got nothing in return. I typed the scripture reference again and it returned only the scripture text and the wordsearch again. I tried a search on "fig: and "fig tree" to no avail. What am I doing wrong. I have tried this to no avail on both of my systems.

Can you give me a walk-through on creating a handout for Romans 1:1-7 which is another one I tried to no avail? I would really appreciate it.

Michael

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