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Posts 128
Terry Cook | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jun 21 2011 6:13 PM

Hi Dave,

Over the years you, and you alone seem to have all the best answrs for seaching questions.

What method, if any, would be best to determine how many times a preposition occurs with an adjective as it's object in the GNT?

One possible example is 2Timothy 2:16- EPI PLEION.

I'll buy you an iced tea on my next trip to your area of the world :-)

Terry Cook

sDg

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 21 2011 6:56 PM

Terry Cook:

Hi Dave,

Over the years you, and you alone seem to have all the best answrs for seaching questions.

What method, if any, would be best to determine how many times a preposition occurs with an adjective as it's object in the GNT?

One possible example is 2Timothy 2:16- EPI PLEION.

I'll buy you an iced tea on my next trip to your area of the world :-)

Terry Cook

sDg

 

I think Dave is on walkabout.  Here is what I suggest.  Do a morph search of the NA27 (entire NT) with the following search string

@P BEFORE 5 WORDS @J[^NV]

The [^NV] reflects the fact that prepositions take various cases:  Genitive, dative or accusative.  I picked 5 words as the limit simply from convenience to allow for intervening words.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 128
Terry Cook | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 21 2011 7:05 PM

What do you think George, is this construction unusual? Zerwik and a couple others seem to indicate the object is the genitive noun!!

Also, what the heck a "walkabout?"

Terry

sDg

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 21 2011 7:24 PM

Terry Cook:

What do you think George, is this construction unusual? Zerwik and a couple others seem to indicate the object is the genitive noun!!

Also, what the heck a "walkabout?"

Terry

sDg

 

walkabout (ˈwɔːkǝˌbaʊt) n 1 a periodic nomadic excursion into the Australian bush made by a native Australian 2 a walking tour 3 chiefly journalistic an occasion when celebrities, royalty, etc., walk among and meet the public 4 go walkabout Austral a to wander through the bush b informal to be lost or misplaced c informal to lose one’s concentration

Collins English Dictionary. 8th ed., Complete & unabridged ed. Glasgow: HarperCollins, 2006.

́Ἐπί can be used with the genitive, but since there is an adj in the acc immediately following, I would think that it would go with the nearest potential reference.  Ἐπἰ πλεῖον is the comparative use of πολύς to indicate "even more."  I think the combination functions adverbially with προσκότω "to advance" to indicate that they advanced even further.  My inclination is to understand it in the sense of an accusative with verbs of motion as Robertson indicates is one usage of the accusative <logosres:ggntlhr;ref=Page.p_468;off=1591> .  Note that he does not specify this passage.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 128
Terry Cook | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 22 2011 6:06 AM

Your morph search worked... sorta. I got 7,00 hits- far too many to sift through. I'll play around with morph search and see if I can get fewer and more accurate results.

Thanks

Terry

sDg

 

Posts 13417
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 22 2011 6:16 AM

Terry Cook:
What method, if any, would be best to determine how many times a preposition occurs with an adjective as it's object in the GNT?

A syntax search is best for searching for constructions. Depending on how exact you want your search, something like this should do:

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 22 2011 6:38 AM

Terry Cook:

Your morph search worked... sorta. I got 7,00 hits- far too many to sift through. I'll play around with morph search and see if I can get fewer and more accurate results.

Thanks

Terry

sDg

 

The more specific you get the few hits you will receive.  I have another search string for you.  Since you were interested in Zerwick's relating ἐπὶ πλεῖον to the adjective in the accusative, I give you a search string to produce these by including the lemma ἐπί.  You will note that due to the 5 WORDS provision certain passages appear which really are not of interest and that most of the accusative adj are more directly related to ἐπί than in 2 Tim 2.16.  The number of words separating ἐπί from the acc adj could be decreased and most likely decrease the number of hits. 

lemma:ἐπί@P BEFORE 5 WORDS @JA

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 22 2011 6:39 AM

I know this is the Libronix forum. But it strikes me that George's search has one main issue. That is that the object of a prepositional phrase can be modified by an adjective when the proper object is a noun.

Here's an example:

Matthew 1:18 18 Τοῦ δὲ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἡ γένεσις οὕτως ἦν. μνηστευθείσης τῆς μητρὸς αὐτοῦ Μαρίας τῷ Ἰωσήφ, πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν αὐτοὺς εὑρέθη ἐν γαστρὶ ἔχουσα ἐκ πνεύματος ἁγίου.

I've bolded the hit, notice it meets the requirements of George's search, an adjective within 5 words of a preposition, EDIT: or Mark's (the adjective does occur in the phrase) but it is clearly not the object but modifies the object, in this case πνευματος.

A syntax search on Cascadia seems to me to be the best option for weeding out a lot of the extra hits.

Let's start with how Cascadia deals with Matthew 1:18

Fairly simple, the pp (prepositional phrase) has the preposition first and then the object modified by an adjective.

Now let's see what happens if we right click on the pp*.

It is tagged with the "head term" of the phrase below it, in this case the object of the preposition.

Let's turn and look to your example, 2 Tim 2:16

And right clicking on the pp

Thus we can come up with a simple search

 

This search nets 765 results.

My cursor examination of random hits found no false positives and I'd probably want to do some checking to make certain my understanding of the way Cascadia tags these head terms is correct but it looks like a fairly common occurrence in the GNT.

 

Posts 26521
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 22 2011 6:44 AM

Terry Cook:
Also, what the heck a "walkabout?"

Hi Terry, I've been on temporary leave of absence with Logos 4 - a big walkaboutBig Smile

George has given you a reasonable text search whilst the Syntax Search guys (both this thread and the other one) may have forgotten that you live in the L3 world (Cascadia is only in L4).

EDIT: just saw Kevin's response which is the same as Rick's in the other thread!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 22 2011 6:45 AM

If you goal is just to judge επι try this

55 hits is very manageable

Posts 26521
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 22 2011 7:28 AM

Terry Cook:
What method, if any, would be best to determine how many times a preposition occurs with an adjective as it's object in the GNT?

This is not an easy one and the other guys know more about grammar than I do! Even with a quick Syntax Search on OpenText there are 800+ results (the same query in L4 gives 700+, but the database is improved in L4).

Dave
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Windows 10 & Android 8

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