The Diligent Audience Member/Owner

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Esther Jones | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011 12:54 PM

So...I asked my pastor this question, and was curious also to get a broader perspective: for those of you who preach and teach:

If you have/had an audience member who owned Logos 4, what would you want them to do with what they learned from your sermon/study 1) before they arrived to hear you and 2) after they get back home to their computer?

How can a lay person make the most of what God is teaching them through their church leaders using Logos 4?

 

Esther

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 1:47 PM

Esther Jones:

So...I asked my pastor this question, and was curious also to get a broader perspective: for those of you who preach and teach:

If you have/had an audience member who owned Logos 4, what would you want them to do with what they learned from your sermon/study 1) before they arrived to hear you and 2) after they get back home to their computer?

How can a lay person make the most of what God is teaching them through their church leaders using Logos 4?

 

Esther

What a great question! While some teachers might find it intimidating, I would love for a member to study a text, in depth before the Bible study or even the sermon. However, while I would welcome one-on-one discussion of some points of study, it would be impolite to have an argument with the teacher over some point, with the rest of the class just listening. Sometimes the differences on subtle points can make big differences. It's possible that you know something the teacher doesn't. It's also possible that the teacher considered your point and rejected it for some subtle point of grammar or interpretation. Again, it would be impolite to the rest of the class for the two of you to debate that point with the rest unaware of the issues.

After the study, it would be valuable to go and study in depth as well. And then to ask a follow up question or two (by phone, email, or in person - depending on what is most appropriate for your situation.

As for methods for a Bible study, I think there's no substitute for original language work, either via the reverse interlinears (for those without much facility in the languages), or by working through the passage in Greek and/or Hebrew (or Aramaic). From there a wide range of commentaries and Bible Encyclopedias can help expose issues you might not have noticed. Generally, I would suggest that on any controversial point, if you haven't read at least two dissenting views and can understand them, you haven't done enough work. Going deeper into a study means exploring things a bit, including those things with which you disagree, and then being able to offer a reasonable explanation of why you disagree with one perspective and agree with another.

As for methods for topical studies, those are a lot more tricky, require a much broader understanding of Scripture and theology, and are (for those reasons) much harder to explore with any depth in an afternoon. I don't like leading these kinds of studies (preferring Bible studies instead). So, maybe someone with more experience can pipe in here.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 1:53 PM

Great question!

At the moment I encourage people to study what I've just preached on - Many Sundays I "assign" a little extra reading and study during my sermon.  Not everyone takes me up on it, but many do and the comments on Sunday night will bear that out from time to time.  Other times I'll have someone approach me Sunday morning and say, "Last Sunday when you told me to read X, I did and ended up studying out the principle of Y in that passage - thanks pastor."

I generally wouldn't want them necessarily studying the passage before I preach on it - for no other reason than that I like to hope that I'm framing a week of discussion and learning for them when I preach. 

 

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Esther Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 2:53 PM

Richard said "it would be impolite to have an argument with the teacher over some point, with the rest of the class just listening. Sometimes the differences on subtle points can make big differences. It's possible that you know something the teacher doesn't. It's also possible that the teacher considered your point and rejected it for some subtle point of grammar or interpretation. Again, it would be impolite to the rest of the class for the two of you to debate that point with the rest unaware of the issues."

Of course...the point is not to argue with the teacher/preacher, and certainly not in the context of the class; rather the point is to honor God's Word and the teaching of it that has sovereignly come my way.

I appreciate Thomas' point, too, that what a preacher/teacher brings forth is hopefully not a "fizzle"--i.e., oh-i-already-knew-that--but rather a springboard for more. So for me, it seems that studying up ahead of time is not a good choice, but rather an indepth study afterward.

Esther

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 3:01 PM

From my perspective, one important point is that preaching involves seeking to discern what God is wanting to say to a particular congregation from His Word at a particular time. It should provide information but should also be involved in the work of transformation.

So, studying and thinking afterwards should not only reflect on what was said but how it affects me as someone to whom God is speaking.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 4:30 PM

Esther Jones:
How can a lay person make the most of what God is teaching them through their church leaders using Logos 4?

I'd give different answers depending upon the lectionary used.The basic logic of the RCL lectionary for a Sunday is:

For Catholics and RCL users who ignore the daily cycle: First I would ask them to fill in the information on the homily and prayers of the faithful - in L3 this was done by tables in notes. In L4 - please don't ask, I might Crying Then to review/modify their responses to the interrelationships in light of the homily.Then to review/modify their studies of the individual passages - again it was tables in L3 for a variety of approaches ... In L4, I try to make the Passage Guide serve as best I can and use notes without tables when that provides a tolerable alternative. Then a final lectio divina on the Gospel and on to studying the next week.

However, for daily RCL users there are additional daily steps. For Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday there are readings to interpret in light of what was read/studied the preceding Sunday; for Thursday, Friday and Saturday there are readings to interpret in light of what will be read the upcoming Sunday. Neither Logos 3 or 4 do a good job of attaching notes to multiple passages or liturgical calendar days. So I Crying. Then I gather myself together and create Passage Guides on the passages I select for serious study and create a note linking the passage guide(s) to the liturgical date. It is in these notes that I place my notes on how the passages for the weekday related to the appropriate Sunday readings.

The "odd" thing about Bible Study related to the preacher's teaching in the lectionary setting is that one does a significant amount of the study prior to hearing the preacher. One prepares to hear the word, then mull over what you heard in light of your preparation.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 4:43 PM

Graham Criddle:
So, studying and thinking afterwards should not only reflect on what was said but how it affects me as someone to whom God is speaking.
 Excellently put Graham.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 4:50 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
However, while I would welcome one-on-one discussion of some points of study, it would be impolite to have an argument with the teacher over some point, with the rest of the class just listening. Sometimes the differences on subtle points can make big differences. It's possible that you know something the teacher doesn't. It's also possible that the teacher considered your point and rejected it for some subtle point of grammar or interpretation. Again, it would be impolite to the rest of the class for the two of you to debate that point with the rest unaware of the issues.

Interesting. I view it to be the job of the teacher to provide the background to make the discussion accessible to the students and to limit the time spent on points brought up by class participants. If it is impossible to make the discussion accessible to the majority of the participants or it time is becoming a constraint then one asks to continue the discussion outside the class setting.

Once (and I'll admit only once) a parishioner stood up and challenged the homilist during the homily. His question was answered with grace and style and the homily continued.

Richard DeRuiter:
I think there's no substitute for original language work, either via the reverse interlinears (for those without much facility in the languages), or by working through the passage in Greek and/or Hebrew (or Aramaic).

As listening to the Word is a fundamental duty of every Christian, I must respectfully disagree. To me, the fundamental of Bible study is praying the Scripture for which Logos dictionaries and media provide the foundation. [You have to understand the surface meaning at some level of competency.] The next level of understanding that is accessible to the average pew-warmer, is reading the Scripture in light of our fore-bearers' understanding - think the classic writers. Again L4 provides the links and the ability to take notes. Then there is application of a myriad of bible study techniques ranging from those suitable for children to scholarly endeavors.Some of these are well-supported in Logos; some are features we expect to see, some ... well I'll bring out my Crying again. I know knitters with fourth grade educations who ponder scripture as they knit whose understanding of scripture exceeds many who study in the original languages.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 4:52 PM

Graham Criddle:
From my perspective, one important point is that preaching involves seeking to discern what God is wanting to say to a particular congregation from His Word at a particular time.

Or letting God say to particular individuals what you didn't even realize was in your sermon.Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Esther Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 8:34 PM

M.J.--

You said: "However, for daily RCL users there are additional daily steps. For Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday there are readings to interpret in light of what was read/studied the preceding Sunday; for Thursday, Friday and Saturday there are readings to interpret in light of what will be read the upcoming Sunday"

Whatever other problems I may have with Catholic theology and practice, I appreciate this careful lining up of scriptures to study. I drooled over your chart above! I have one devotional that works in a similar manner: if I make it through everything in the day's readings and prayer guides, I'll have put in a good hour! I've been through it many times--it is not available in Logos, of course.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 9:00 PM

MJ. Smith:

Richard DeRuiter:
However, while I would welcome one-on-one discussion of some points of study, it would be impolite to have an argument with the teacher over some point, with the rest of the class just listening. Sometimes the differences on subtle points can make big differences. It's possible that you know something the teacher doesn't. It's also possible that the teacher considered your point and rejected it for some subtle point of grammar or interpretation. Again, it would be impolite to the rest of the class for the two of you to debate that point with the rest unaware of the issues.

Interesting. I view it to be the job of the teacher to provide the background to make the discussion accessible to the students and to limit the time spent on points brought up by class participants. If it is impossible to make the discussion accessible to the majority of the participants or it time is becoming a constraint then one asks to continue the discussion outside the class setting.

The concern I expressed has to do with the 'arm-chair theologian' who has some facility in the subject being studied, but who also has a need to be heard and declared right. Without suggesting that our original poster here is in this category, this is a very real problem in some circles and causes some teachers to simply prohibit discussion at all (yes, I've heard of this happening!).

Further, sometimes the subtle point of grammar and/or theology, is really a sidebar to the main task of the teacher for the day. In those cases it's important to keep the main thing the main thing. I have often found myself going down rabbit trails in preparation for a lesson, only to find that the hunch I was pursuing was completely unwarranted. I might think of a few examples, but writing them out here would likely invite debate on those issues, rather than simply demonstrate how difficult it can be to teach all the subtleties of a sub-point of a 50 minute lesson when that sub-point is based only in part on hours of study.

I guess my bigger concern was to do two things here: 1) invite the student to study! Yes! Please do! 2) invite the student to let the teacher teach, and engage the teacher with polite concern for the teacher and the other students.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 9:05 PM

MJ. Smith:

Richard DeRuiter:
I think there's no substitute for original language work, either via the reverse interlinears (for those without much facility in the languages), or by working through the passage in Greek and/or Hebrew (or Aramaic).

As listening to the Word is a fundamental duty of every Christian, I must respectfully disagree. To me, the fundamental of Bible study is praying the Scripture for which Logos dictionaries and media provide the foundation. [You have to understand the surface meaning at some level of competency.]...

I don't think we really disagree, though my instincts may be more academic than devotional (I did go to a theological seminary, after all!). Ideally, both occur simultaneously, as we grow in our love for the One Who speaks His Living Word to us today, and as we grow in our facility in reading that Word as it was first spoken. These are complementary skills.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 9:14 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
of a 50 minute lesson

Therein lies part of the difference 90 minutes to 2 hours or so is the most frequent  time line in our parish.Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 11:52 PM

MJ. Smith:

I'd give different answers depending upon the lectionary used.The basic logic of the RCL lectionary for a Sunday is:

Hi MJ

This whole post was very informative and gave real insight.

Many thanks

Graham

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 23 2011 11:53 PM

MJ. Smith:
Or letting God say to particular individuals what you didn't even realize was in your sermon.Smile

Absolutely!!

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Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 24 2011 3:34 AM

Graham Criddle:

MJ. Smith:
Or letting God say to particular individuals what you didn't even realize was in your sermon.Smile

Absolutely!!

This point was worth the whole thread and more, IMHO!

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