Reduce Pricing On Materials / Books

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Mark Bold | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jun 30 2011 7:59 AM

Although I love the software, I must say, after purchasing it nearly 7 years ago, I have yet to purchase any extra books.  I felt it was about time to share my reasons.

With Amazon.com and the onslaught of e-book readers, the materials provided by Logos are available virtually anywhere.  That being said, the pricing by logos is as much as 2X more - for an e-version than just buying the book for the library.  In the marketplace today, that means e-books are even cheaper.  

Logos has decided to go the other direction, charging much more for an e-version than even the physical hard copy.  Hard copy books are more expensive (in all other markets besides Logos) because there is much more overheard (costs associated with printing and distribution).  Logos does not have that cost.  

Example.  I just purchased a new book:

On Amazon.com, The New Testament: Its Background and Message is $23.09 for the hard copy.  It's $19.24 for the Kindle version (which can be used on IPad's as well).   http://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Its-Background-Message/dp/0805426329  At ChristianBook.com, the hard copy is $22.99 http://www.christianbook.com/testament-background-and-message-2nd-edition/thomas-lea/9780805426328/pd/26329 

At Logos, en e-version (granted it is linked to other materials) is $25.95 http://www.logos.com/product/3343/the-new-testament-its-background-and-message and gives the retail (hard copy pricing) of $34.99.  I don't think it is a good buy.  So, I got the hard copy version, which was cheaper than both versions at Amazon.com.  

Logos fails here.  The home printing/copying manufactures understand that they sell their machines at a virtual loss, so they make money off the propietary ink cartriges.  Logos software is not a cheap solution for Bible software.  Yet, they also get the customer off of the books. 

Again, I love the value of being able to link books and other materials together to do a study, but I must say, I believe very few people actually use Logos to actually read the books from cover to cover.  Topical studies, where you just want to add more works to ones collection.  Fine, but still, should the e-version be more than what other places sell their hard copies for?  In virtually every search I have found this to be the case.   I have found it better to avoid purchasing e-versions from logos, and for even a cheaper cost, add a hard copy to my library.  With that, not only do I study, but I actually read the whole work.

My suggestion.  Logos needs to be competitive to Kindle and other e-versions.  Until then, sadly, they lost me (and I am sure many others) as a loyal customer.

Blessings,

Mark

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2011 8:13 AM

Hi, Mark, welcome to the forums.

The topic you raise is one that several others have raised. I encourage you to hear what Bob Pritchett (Logos CEO) has said in the past. You can read his contributions here: http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Speaks (under the heading marketing info). It also worth pointing out that Amazon or CDB:

  • Don't offer generous discounts to seminary students
  • Don't offer reasonably regular sales (Logos has four or five big sales a year)
  • Don't offer hugely discounted 'base packages'
  • Don't offer substantial discounts if you pre-order software (like Logos' Pre-pub program)
  • Don't often offer discounts if you buy books in a collection

So, with Logos, although the per book price often looks higher, I suspect for many users the total library cost would be significantly less with Logos.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2011 8:36 AM

Mark Bold:
Again, I love the value of being able to link books and other materials together to do a study, but I must say, I believe very few people actually use Logos to actually read the books from cover to cover.  Topical studies, where you just want to add more works to ones collection.  Fine, but still, should the e-version be more than what other places sell their hard copies for?  In virtually every search I have found this to be the case.   I have found it better to avoid purchasing e-versions from logos, and for even a cheaper cost, add a hard copy to my library.  With that, not only do I study, but I actually read the whole work.

Did you include the price of new bookshelves and a larger house for all of those books?  Devil

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 134
L.D. Young | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2011 8:57 AM

To Mark Bold:

I understand how you feel. I purchased my Logos software about 7 years ago but didn't start purchasing books or upgrades until a few months ago. I think three things kept me away: the prices, ignorance on how to fully use the software and the fear of e-books (What if Logos went out of business? Could I still use my software? Could I ever sell my collection like a hard cover set, etc).

Recently though, I began using Logos for sermon preparation and found a huge value in it. It's amazing the amount of study that can be done so efficiently and quickly. Logos won me over. I still worry about the future and my growing investment in Logos but I do appreciate it's value.

I'm still a little concerned about some of the prices. I'd like to give all my business to Logos but I've found the same thing you have..... better prices elsewhere (sometimes). For example I purchased 22 volumes of Calvin's Commentaries for $27.99 from an IOS competitor because Logos is asking $399.95 for 46 volumes. The Logos collection is bigger and maybe better but I can still get a good sampling of Calvin at a huge discount elsewhere. I also buy most of the books I read for pleasure from one of the big internet retailers because they are usually a few dollars cheaper. 

Overall, I love Logos and buy "most" of my serious study materials like commentaries and dictionaries from them because of what you can do with the software. But for lighter reading I usually find myself back at the big internet retailer.

To Logos:

I love your software! I think you are the best thing out there for the serious Bible student but you may find it tough competing with the "big boys" through Vyrso if you can't compete with their prices.

Just my humble opinion.  Smile

PS: I read Bob Pritchett's posts and now understand what he has to go through better. But ultimately if you find value in a product you're willing to pay a little more to get more; if not you'll you'll pay a little less somewhere else to get a little less (Like my Calvin's Commentaries example. I just don't read Calvin that much Smile).

Posts 1357
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2011 9:36 AM

Mark Bold:

Although I love the software, I must say, after purchasing it nearly 7 years ago, I have yet to purchase any extra books.  I felt it was about time to share my reasons.

With Amazon.com and the onslaught of e-book readers, the materials provided by Logos are available virtually anywhere.  That being said, the pricing by logos is as much as 2X more - for an e-version than just buying the book for the library.  In the marketplace today, that means e-books are even cheaper.  

Again, I love the value of being able to link books and other materials together to do a study, but I must say, I believe very few people actually use Logos to actually read the books from cover to cover.  Topical studies, where you just want to add more works to ones collection.  Fine, but still, should the e-version be more than what other places sell their hard copies for?  In virtually every search I have found this to be the case.   I have found it better to avoid purchasing e-versions from logos, and for even a cheaper cost, add a hard copy to my library.  With that, not only do I study, but I actually read the whole work.

My suggestion.  Logos needs to be competitive to Kindle and other e-versions.  

Logos is a library system for Bible study--not an e-book reader. It provides tremendous "added value" by providing capabilities for research and study far beyond "reading" a book.

If you have not made any additional purchases in 7 years, you have not experienced the tremendous advances made in the Logos "engine" and have missed out on selecting resources from the thousands available.

My extensive print library now sits mostly unused since I have much of the same resources in my Logos software library. I am able to utilize my resources in Logos in many ways that are not found in a print version or e-book version.

I have taken advantage of the excellent prices consistently offered by Logos through its pre-pub and community pricing programs as well as their tremendous base package values. Their regular sales also offer fabulous values on resources. I started 3 1/2 yrs ago with a small base package and now have over 1800 volumes.

Thank you Logos.

Posts 322
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2011 9:42 AM

I have had my copy of Scholar's Library for several years.  Yep I know the bells and whilstles are great. Yeah I know that I can build a super, duper, deluxe, world renown library.  I too just don't feel that shelling out more money for even more resources that I don't need makes my library any more productive.  Perhaps a set of commentaries or two may come in handy but, really, how many more topics do I need that isn't already covered by the 1500 odd books in my library already.  I don't see the marginal utility of buying 550 more books even if they cost$.50 a copy.

Posts 280
Mark Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2011 10:18 AM

I just priced the seven volumes of the Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament at Amazon that are in the pre-publication bundle for Logos.  Guess who is lower - Logos by $14.

Posts 2456
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2011 10:24 AM

I would probably agree that Logos may not be the best means for reading a book with other means that are out there. I thought that I would probably do what Mark has done: get a package and simply walk over to my bookshelf for my print references and buy on Amazon as needed.

After working with Logos, I realized that was a lame strategy. The power of Logos is that your library is fully integrated, accessible and searchable. And it's fast. While I still use printed books, it's so much more fruitful to work directly in Logos when I need to study. 

How many books one needs has little or nothing whatsoever to do with the merits of Logos. It's the accessibility to the Bible and one's library that makes Logos so useful. 

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2011 10:28 AM

Mark Bold:
Although I love the software, I must say, after purchasing it nearly 7 years ago, I have yet to purchase any extra books.  I felt it was about time to share my reasons.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for finally posting. Your point is well stated.
With so many years experience using Logos I won't tell you what you already know about the benefits of the digital book over hard copy. I only wanted to add two more factors for your consideration:
Convincing the copyright holder to license digital copies is sometimes expensive. They are a little apprehensive to put their works into digital form because it is so easy to duplicate they fear piracy and loss of revenue. I don't think this should be a major concern with Logos 4. With the new Vyrso app and the projected 25,000 Christian books to be released in that format by year's end, we can enjoy reading books cover-to-cover at affordable prices.  
There are ways to save money on Logos books. The pricing of Logos 4 resources reflects the unique factors involved in publishing them. The type of book is often not a cover-to-cover read. There are reference books with special formatting,or heavily footnoted works,or multi-lingual text; some with right to left script. Academic tomes can sell as little as a few hundred copies. Traditional publishers charged several hundred dollars for one copy before the advent of "print-on-demand."  Consider this book in Logos: "Like a Bird in a Cage: The Invasion of Sennacherib in 701 BCE"  $215.00. This book is also $215 on Amazon in hard copy, $131 used. But Logos frequently has sales or huge discounts on bundles and collections. Our example book can be purchased in the History of Israel Collection with 18 additional titles for $499.95. Amazon is not going to cut you a deal like that on hard copy or Kindle. And remember, most of your Logos library is accessible on multiple devices without any additional cost. If you purchase through the Community Pricing program or the Pre-Pub program you save big money. Last year we saw one go for $1. Many sold for $4 per volume. A special Christmas offer had books as cheap as a dollar. These are not undesirable discount "throw-away" titles, but wonderful books like "Aquinas on Doctrine: A Critical Introduction"  $168 ($165hc/$75pb on Amazon.) My true price from Logos on sale; $2.

If you keep up with the Logos blog and sign up for email notifications and Logos Newswire, you will be informed of many opportunities to buy new resources at real savings. One thing I can attest to is the more resources you have indexed into your library the more productive your Bible study gets.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 4
Mark Bold | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2011 11:29 AM

Thanks to all who have replied.  

I guess I am a different user than most.   I don't purchase Pre-Pub materials.  Although many would be nice to have, I haven't read everything that came with the Scholar edition that I already have.  Further, as a student who is working to get an M.Div., I really only have time to purchase materials that are required for my courses.  Although I would have loved the integration and other capabilities. 

I will look into the discount for Seminary students, as I just started this journey - which a discount would be nice.

Still, I do believe to get more users to utilize the extra available materials, pricing should be reduced to be a bit more competitive. 

Again, I appreciate everyone's feedback.  I was not aware of a Seminary discount that I (may) be able to receive now.

Blessings,

Mark

Posts 4
Mark Bold | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2011 11:35 AM

George,

Yes. I already have plenty of bookshelves.  Further, there is something romantic (perhaps poor choice of words) about books on a shelf anyways.  We do have a "library" and it is nice to see a large collection of theology materials as well.  Also, when it comes time to pass them on to my children, I think that brings more of an emotional attachment.  So, from that standpoint, hard copy books are a great advantage too.

But that said, practically speaking, yes the integration of materials by Logos makes it perfect for the study type.  For this, it is the best solution on the market.

Posts 8634
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2011 11:39 AM

Mark Bold:
Further, there is something romantic (perhaps poor choice of words) about books on a shelf anyways.  

That is the precisely perfect word! If you don't have it, Logos has a freebie from Eugene Fields: The Love Affairs of a Bibliomaniac 

 

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 616
Bill Shewmaker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2011 11:50 AM

Mark Bold:

Thanks to all who have replied.  

I guess I am a different user than most.   I don't purchase Pre-Pub materials.  Although many would be nice to have, I haven't read everything that came with the Scholar edition that I already have.  Further, as a student who is working to get an M.Div., I really only have time to purchase materials that are required for my courses.  Although I would have loved the integration and other capabilities. 

I will look into the discount for Seminary students, as I just started this journey - which a discount would be nice.

Still, I do believe to get more users to utilize the extra available materials, pricing should be reduced to be a bit more competitive. 

Again, I appreciate everyone's feedback.  I was not aware of a Seminary discount that I (may) be able to receive now.

Blessings,

Mark

Mark, as a beginning seminary student you will appreciate the power of Logos in formatting your papers as it provides for footnote citation in various forms. You can highlight/cut/paste or export to MS Word or WordPerfet and it will provide the citation in the correct format automatically. If you are using MS Word, you can automatically replace a Scripture reference with the Scripture by using another of Logos' (and Word's) built in features. Check with your seminary professors about their textbooks...many are now starting to use resources that are available in Logos...also IF Logos is "required" by the seminary, you can get HUGE discounts on purchases.

You mentioned that you have been using Logos for 7 years (if I read that correctly). Have you upgraded from Libronix to the Logos 4 program? There is a huge difference in how the two programs work.

Good luck (and prayers) as you begin your seminary training.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2011 1:26 PM

Mark Bold:
I haven't read everything that came with the Scholar edition that I already have.

The powerful search capabilities of Logos have changed the way I read. I used to choose books by the recommendations of friends or the librarian. Judging a book by it's cover or chapter headings was not very reliable. Having Logos search my whole library for a phrase or reference is like having a team of research assistants scan thousands of books and returning a report of all relevant material. I will never read every book in my library. I will read the more relevant books or portions, thanks to Logos. Other times a search result returns a title I did not know I have, or did not imagine it would address my subject of interest.

There are too many great books to be read to waste time reading just a good book. Logos reads all the books and helps me find the great parts. What I would give to have had Logos as a tool from my youth.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1206
Ward Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 1 2011 11:51 AM

Mark Bold:

 

Again, I love the value of being able to link books and other materials together to do a study, but I must say, I believe very few people actually use Logos to actually read the books from cover to cover.

For a very long time, when I used Logos I just looked up references it suggested.  When I started working with commentaries in more detail, I noticed the Logos would sometimes drop me in the right general area of a commentary, but that there was very useful information (like chapter/section intros/etc) immediately preceding the auto-linked location.  That led me onto a path of reading items cover to cover...albeit I don't get nearly as much read as I place onto my pending reading list.  Reading cover to cover from a desktop was hard, but became easier when I got a tablet and I could sit in a much more comfortable location.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 1 2011 12:01 PM

Ward Walker:

Mark Bold:

 

Again, I love the value of being able to link books and other materials together to do a study, but I must say, I believe very few people actually use Logos to actually read the books from cover to cover.

For a very long time, when I used Logos I just looked up references it suggested.  When I started working with commentaries in more detail, I noticed the Logos would sometimes drop me in the right general area of a commentary, but that there was very useful information (like chapter/section intros/etc) immediately preceding the auto-linked location.  That led me onto a path of reading items cover to cover...albeit I don't get nearly as much read as I place onto my pending reading list.  Reading cover to cover from a desktop was hard, but became easier when I got a tablet and I could sit in a much more comfortable location.

There are books you read, books you reference and books you study.  I recently read Tommy Thompson's

Thompson, Thomas L. The Origin Tradition of Ancient Israel: I. The Literary Formation of Genesis and Exodus 1-23. Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1987.

While I read it from cover to cover, I had it in a floating window and checked all of his references to the OT in my BHS which was in the main window.  Like everything, adjusting takes a bit of practice.  I have found it easier to read a book, as opposed to referencing or studying a book by opening it in a floating window with the table of contents showing.  This makes for shorter lines which are easier to read.  Although the reading view also makes the lines short, I don't care for that as well since I then need to move to the top of the next column rather than simply hitting the space bar to advance the page.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 1 2011 12:09 PM

George Somsel:
There are books you read, books you reference and books you study. 

Precisely.

There are also reading plans within Logos and users have been creating reading lists. So we can concentrate our effort on what may give us the greatest return.  I generally use commentaries as reference works but the way the EEC series is being rolled out facilitates a cover-to-cover reading plan. I could never do that with WBC.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 1 2011 12:24 PM

Matthew C Jones:

George Somsel:
There are books you read, books you reference and books you study. 

Precisely.

There are also reading plans within Logos and users have been creating reading lists. So we can concentrate our effort on what may give us the greatest return.  I generally use commentaries as reference works but the way the EEC series is being rolled out facilitates a cover-to-cover reading plan. I could never do that with WBC.

I'm sorry to have to say that the WBC is absolutely not conducive to reading.  I really don't like to mouse-over the note references in the translation then be required to scroll through the same notes before reaching the rest of the material.  It is laid out like a print book rather than an e-book.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 1 2011 5:14 PM

 

Mark Bold:

Logos software is not a cheap solution for Bible software.  Yet, they also get the customer off of the books. 

Logos engine is free. You pay for the resources.

 

Mark Bold:

Hard copy books are more expensive (in all other markets besides Logos) because there is much more overheard (costs associated with printing and distribution). Logos does not have that cost.  

Mark - It is important to remember that Logos is a "value added" reseller. You should expect to pay more when you purchase resources. When you purchase an ebook from Amazon, they have done nothing more to it than store it on their server and sell it to you. Logos tags the book so that it is searchable within their software. The large part of your bill is going to the publisher, the smaller part is going to Logos. Obviously there are some resources which Logos is able to have a higher margin on than others. Vyrso books will be more appropriately compared to Amazon. We will have to "wait and see" how competitive Logos is able to be. I would still prefer to have some of the Vyrso books in my Logos library (books from authors like Francis Chan; Andy Stanley; Craig Groeschel, etc.).

Let me give you some advice from someone who just graduated with my MDIV. I purchased Logos 3 months before I graduated. I could have saved myself time and money if I had purchased Logos in the beginning. As others have told you, there is an academic discount. I am the kind who likes to keep my textbooks (if they were any good). As it turns out, I sold back one of my textbooks and purchased it for my Logos account. As I was working on my very last paper, I used Logos to write my paper and discovered that the textbook I had used 3 years earlier spoke directly to my topic. I would have never thought to grab that book from off my shelf! Sure, other ebooks are searchable, but only one book at a time. Part of the benefit of Logos is that you don't have to remember which book to look up! If I could have done it all over again, I would have purchased all of my textbooks through Logos, when possible.

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