I'm just curious: During the first century--Did people use an out-house? And what did they use for toilet paper? I could not find any commentary to these questions in my L4 library. As I said, I'm just curious.
Here is a relevant link. No Uncle John's Bathroom Reader's though...
http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/wh_region/mideast1.htm
I can't speak for everyone, but in Greece there was a group known as cynics who reportedly would urinate in public (which is why they were called "cynics" from κύων indicating dogs (obviously to be considered deviants). In 1 Sam 25.22, 34; 1 Kg 14.10; 16.11; 21.21 it refers to males as "he who pisseth against the wall." In Qumran each member of the community had a digging stick and would go over a hill out of sight to relieve himself and cover it.
And what did they use for toilet paper?
A search for toilet or privy or latrine in a collection the deals with Bible background will probably be fruitful. There's a few bits in Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Manners and Customs if you have that. Most houses did not have an outhouse. At one point the Talmud also gives the definition of a rich man. "It is anyone who has a toilet near his table". Instead ordinary people had simple chamber pots which would then be carried outside and dumped in certain places. There were also shared public latrines whilst in the city, or holes could be dug when not. The Essenes toilet habits are described by Josephus.
Nay, on the other days they dig a small pit, a foot deep, with a paddle (which kind of hatchet is given them when they are first admitted among them); and covering themselves round with their garment, that they may not affront the divine rays of light, they ease themselves into that pit, after which they put the earth that was dug out again into the pit; and even this they do only in the more lonely places, which they choose out for this purpose; and although this easement of the body be natural, yet it is a rule with them to wash themselves after it, as if it were a defilement to them.
As for toilet paper, discussion in the talmud reveals that stones were used. The heading in the English translation I have in Logos is "UTILIZATION OF STONES TO CLEAN UP AFTER DEFECATING", which makes absolutely fascinating reading, but because of the language used in the translation, I probably ought not to share here. I will say that one of the gems of advice is not to use a brittle stone!
Interesting thread....I had wondered about this a while back...this time; there were better links provided A search for Cynics in my library turned up a lot of good info....
Dear Mark, I could not find in any of my Bible translations "utilization of stones to clean up after defecating." Also, I do not have Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Manners and Customs." Any more advice?
P.S. I always appreciate you as a L4 MVP
Dear Mark, I could not find in any of my Bible translations "utilization of stones to clean up after defecating." Also, I do not have Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Manners and Customs." Any more advice? P.S. I always appreciate you as a L4 MVP
The link Mark referred to that discusses the utilization of stones is from the Babylonian Talmud
I could not find in any of my Bible translations "utilization of stones to clean up after defecating."
This was in the Babylonian Talmud, not a Bible.
Any more advice?
The search I mentioned earlier should help if you have a collection of books useful on Bible Background. You can build a Bible Background collection using the string (title:(manner,custom,background,archaeolog, archeolog) OR subject:(manner,custom,"New Testament—Background","Jews", "Judaism", antiquities, "christianity--origin", historiography, palestine, qumran, rabinnic*, talmud) OR (subject:(excavation,archaeolog,archeolog, antiquities) AND type:dictionary)) ANDNOT subject:(canon,doctrine,"Jews—Conversion", "Hebrew Language")
Deuteronomy 23:12-13 is worth reading for OT non-city life.
Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Manners and Customs
Here's a quote:
"Normally there were no toilets in the houses; human excrement was disposed of in nearby waste ground. Sewage and animal manure commonly littered the streets of towns. Conditions in houses or in town usually were anything but sanitary" (this refers to roughly the time of King David)
The link Mark posted was for this article from: Neusner, Jacob. The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2011.
Thanks to all of you. If you find any more information, lay it on me.
I asked where the toilet was in an Arab village in Israel 40 odd years ago. The family were embarrassed at my question. Eventually they direected me to the field behind the house. I said: "Big toilet!" and we all laughed.
In Albania they used to clean themselves with water, sometimes with soap. I always carry a small piece of soap and a flannel for use as a towel when staying in villages where they don't have modern amenities. This is cheating somewhat, but no one is looking!
I asked where the toilet was in an Arab village in Israel 40 odd years ago. The family were embarrassed at my question. Eventually they direected me to the field behind the house. I said: "Big toilet!" and we all laughed. In Albania they used to clean themselves with water, sometimes with soap. I always carry a small piece of soap and a flannel for use as a towel when staying in villages where they don't have modern amenities. This is cheating somewhat, but no one is looking!
It is best not to rely on what you hear from Arab villagers in Israel nowadays. Many of them were not even there 200 years ago. It depends on the specific family and its provenance. It is best to rely on Dalman. Arbeit und Sitte in Palaestina.
It is certain that there were toilets in Ancient Israel. They were excavated in the city of David. As for the 1st century from the emphatic prohibition in the temple scroll we can infer that the Qumran sect was reacting against a common practice in society to include toilets inside the city. The Mishna probably reveals that there were toilets inside the second temple.
PS Thank you for leading the discussion in the forum to tranquil waters.
I don't care what the Mishna says, I think we can 1000% sure there were no toilets in the temple...not even if there were running water, which is a strong possiblity. Deut. 23:12-14 is rather clear that excrement is not something He allows in His presence.
I distinctly prefer my own setup to this THIS
Well if you had lived during that period I am sure you would subscribe to the doctrines of the Qumran sect. [:)]
If my choices were the usual suspect of Sadducees, Pharisees, and Qumran/Essenes (assuming they were one and the same), I would have to agree with you.
Would it comfort you to know that the toilets are reported to have been way under the temple itself and not on the side of the mount where the actual cultic ritual is supposed to have taken place and that the priests had to go through underground tunnels to get there?
Guys, let's not make a theology out of this...or we wont be allowed to discuss it...lol!
Sounds like a pretty "crappy" doctine anwyay...ohh...I could continue with word-play here...[:#]
The only practical thing I know on the subject is that human excrement was not good for using as fuel...but cow patties were (see Ezekiel). When I travelled through some of rural India, on the outside walls of houses you can see shaped cow patties hanging up drying, ready to be burnt for fuel...cooking, etc. I would assume, though, that human waste could be used for fuel but it was less effective, and less hygienic. Maybe that could be a candidate for thas show, "worst jobs in the world" - a human excrement shaper/dryer.
To some degree, yes. I still have concerns. I am certain YHWH would not inhabit a building with feces in it. Plumbing that immediately takes excrement away underground is fine for "average" situations, but the Temple is anything but average. My understanding is that the floor of the temple was raised off the ground so that the priests, particularly the high priest, didn't unknowingly step on an unmarked grave from ages past, thus making him unclean and unfit for service. YHWH is particular and picky about such things...and rightly so.
Guys, let's not make a theology out of this...or we wont be allowed to discuss it...lol! Sounds like a pretty "crappy" doctine anwyay...ohh...I could continue with word-play here... The only practical thing I know on the subject is that human excrement was not good for using as fuel...but cow patties were (see Ezekiel). When I travelled through some of rural India, on the outside walls of houses you can see shaped cow patties hanging up drying, ready to be burnt for fuel...cooking, etc. I would assume, though, that human waste could be used for fuel but it was less effective, and less hygienic. Maybe that could be a candidate for thas show, "worst jobs in the world" - a human excrement shaper/dryer.
Sounds like a pretty "crappy" doctine anwyay...ohh...I could continue with word-play here...
Though all excrement is unclean, the excrement of cattle is less unclean than the excrement of a human. In general, cattle are clean for food...humans are not. This was a large part of why Ezekiel pleaded with YHWH to allow him to use cattle dung rather than human dung. YHWH saw the wisdom in Ezekiel's comment and allowed the change. The requisite "humiliation" that Ezekiel was undergoing (a type of what Israel was about to endure) was sufficiently illustrated by having to cook cakes over cattle dung. The process did make Ezekiel unclean for the entire duration of the "sign".
I am certain YHWH would not inhabit a building with *** in it.
Just to be clear, I used the word "fee-sees" in the sentence above. Not sure why that would be censored. [^o)]
To some degree, yes.
You see? We'll make a proper Sadducee out of you yet. [:)] Would it help if, just to keep you sweet, we would, say, offer you a short tenure as a high priest? [:D]
[;)]
Think I'll pass...
Is that how Caiaphas got in? Story is he was found in his sarcophagus with a coin under his tongue to pay the ferry master's toll across the river Styx. What a high priest!
Story is he was found in his sarcophagus with a coin under his tongue to pay the ferry master's toll across the river Styx. What a high priest!
Wrong story I am afraid. The ossuary belonged to a son of someone named Caiaphas if I am not mistaken. The coin was found in another ossuary (at the same spot) of one Miriam daughter of Simon.
Thanks for the string Mark. My rules are no where as complex as this. I got 39 hits, hand to manually remove Charles Dickens work.
Interesting reading from the Talmud. Glad I took the plunge and got it.
I didn't make myself clear! I was a guest in an Arab village 40 years ago. When I needed the toilet, they were embarrassed as they had to direcft me to the field behind the house!
Okay, I found info in this resource. I think I got my previous info off the internet.
Thiede, Carsten Peter. The Cosmopolitan World of Jesus : New Findings from Archaeology. London: SPCK, 2004. Beginning p. 91
Still doesn't cast Caiaphas in a good light.
Peace to you, Mark! *smile*
and! Always Joy in the Lord!
I am truly grateful for your ideas about building an excellent Bible Background Collection!
You have served your Brothers and Sisters very well! Even as I am confident that you serve our Gracious Lord in many otherways including your family and your Ministry.
Thank you!
BTW, I had two other Bible Background collections already built, but they "couldn't hold a candle" to yours! *smile*
From my Logos homepage this morning:
LOL...the usage of "toilet" here is the archaic one of "tending to one's personal hygiene", not using the "pot". You may realize that, but I just want to make that clear in case some aren't aware. This woman is sitting on a regular chair, not an early commode.
Thanks David. Yes I knew. Just too funny to pass up though. [:)]
Didn't they just stop at McDonalds? [:D]
Well, it appears they used stones, not paper. As for outhouses, that excerpt from the Talmud also seems to speak to where to go and/or dig a pit.
Maybe that's why David picked up 5 smooth stones - one to kill Goliath and four to save for other uses.
Thanks for the laugh Eric.
Although Eric's comment was made (one assumes) all in good natured fun, I was tempted (temporarily, mind you) to post the real and accurate reason that David chose 5 stones from the brook. However, I considered that such a response would likely devolve into opinions related to doctrine...and we all know where that leads...
...DANCING!!! [6]
Although Eric's comment was made (one assumes) all in good natured fun, I was tempted (temporarily, mind you) to post the real and accurate reason that David chose 5 stones from the brook. However, I considered that such a response would likely devolve into opinions related to doctrine...and we all know where that leads... ...DANCING!!!
...DANCING!!!
Ok David I'm interested. Email me at lynden_williams at the mail that is always hot.
I'm glad it wasn't the reel reason that you proposed to give since we all know where that leads ... MOVIES !!! [6]
I'm glad it wasn't the reel reason that you proposed to give since we all know where that leads ... MOVIES !!!
David vs. Goliath - the Sequel! (that was 10 bucks down the drain!)
Fear of outhouses? Who'd a thunk it?It's hard to know how valid Talmudic attributions are or what period of time some things in fact pertain to, but this is another example of how differently the ancients thought. And thanks to the Logos Talmuds I can learn about this stuff!
XVI.5 A. [60B] He who goes into a privy says, “Be most honored, you honored and holy ones, those who serve the Most High. Give honor to the God of Israel. Wait on me until I go in and do what I wish and come back to you. [So guard me from the evil spirits at the privy.]” B. Said Abbayye, “A person should not say such a prayer, lest [the guardian angels] leave him and go their way. C. “But this is what he should say: ‘Guard me, guard me. Help me, help me. Support me, support me. Wait for me, wait for me, until I go in and come out. For this is the way of mortals.” D. When he comes out, he should say, “Blessed are you … who has formed man with wisdom and created in him various sorts of holes and apertures. It is entirely clear before your glorious throne that if one of them [that should remain closed] should open up, or if one of them [that should remain open] should close up, it will not be possible to arise before you.” E. How does one conclude the blessing? F. Said Rab, “ ‘… who heals the sick.’ ” G. Said Samuel, “In this way Abba [Rab] turns the whole world into invalids! Rather: ‘Who heals all flesh.’ ” H. R. Sheshet said, “ ‘Who does wonders.’ ” I. Said R. Pappa, “Therefore let us say them both: ‘Who heals all flesh and who does wonders.’ ”... XIX.6 A. Said R. Tanhum bar Hanilai, “Whoever behaves modestly in the privy is saved from three things: snakes, scorpions, and destructive spirits.” B. Some say, “Also his dreams rest easy on him.” XIX.7 A. There was a privy in Tiberias, into which, even if two people entered and, even by day, they would be harmed. B. R. Ammi and R. Assi went in one by one but were not injured. C. Rabbis said to them, “Are you not afraid?” D. They said to them, “We have learned a tradition: the lesson for [dealing with] the privy is modesty and silence, the lesson for [dealing with] suffering is silence and prayer.”XIX.8 A. Abbayye’s mother trained a lamb to go with him into a privy. B. Why not train a goat for him? C. It might turn into a satyr.XIX.9 A. Before Raba became head, the daughter of R. Hisda [his wife] would rattle nuts in a brass dish [to frighten away spirits]. B. After he came to power, she made a little window for him and put her hand on his head.(Babylonian Talmud, Berakhot)
