Thoughts on the upgrade price calculator

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Posts 112
BS | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Nov 4 2009 7:26 AM

I think Alain Maashe from this thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/3238.aspx?PageIndex=3 may be right about the "credits" to your upgrade price based on resources you have purchased being very heavily cut.  If you paid $120 for BDAG you don't get $120 credited to your upgrade price, you get some small percentage of your original purchase price credited, maybe something like 10% (think total upgrade price divided by MSRP for all new resources in the package).  So, while Logos can honestly say you "never have to buy a resource twice", you may only be getting less than a dime on every real dollar you spent on separate resource unlocks applied against the upgrade price.

If this is really how the upgrade calculator works, the question is would you rather sell your Pillar Commentary or Baker Commentary set at a 50% loss on ebay (I don't know what you could get for it by selling it separately so 50% is just a guess) or get the "dime on the dollar" or whatever percent the resources are marked down through the logos.com upgrade calculator. 

If the calculator does work this way you would always be better off to sell your separately purchased resources on ebay and apply your earnings to the upgrade.

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Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 7:34 AM

Isn't that a kind of backward way of looking at it?  If Logos gave you full credit for everything you bought in the past, they'e owe YOU money for upgrading.  

But rather how much are you gaining in the upgrade needs to looked at.  My upgrade cost was $727.  One resource alone was worth more than $600 had I had to buy it separately, and the total amount of resources I got for that $700 was way more than $3000.  If I remember rightly, I got the total upgrade for less than $1 per book!

Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.

Posts 112
BS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 7:36 AM

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining.  I think the deals Logos is giving on resources in these packages are outstanding!

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 7:48 AM

Bryan Smith:

If this is really how the upgrade calculator works, the question is would you rather sell your Pillar Commentary or Baker Commentary set at a 50% loss on ebay (I don't know what you could get for it by selling it separately so 50% is just a guess) or get the "dime on the dollar" or whatever percent the resources are marked down through the logos.com upgrade calculator. 

If the calculator does work this way you would always be better off to sell your separately purchased resources on ebay and apply your earnings to the upgrade.

I don't think this is the way we should look at it.  I do believe Alain Maashe does have it right on how the credit for titles previously purchased is figured. But I think if you were to sell your previous license on eBay for whatever % you can get, you would find your "individualized upgrade price" goes up. I am assuming you would want to keep access to the resource or you would not have purchased it in the first place. Even if you did not wish to keep the  title, you should probably forfeit the deep discount rate when you go "cafeteria plan" and start paring titles off the package. The sheer volume of the package is what makes the deep discounts possible. Allowing everyone to jettison some titles and procure the remainder at firesale prices achieves the same result as a bankruptcy sale.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 7:48 AM

Bryan Smith:
If you paid $120 for BDAG you don't get $120 credited to your upgrade price, you get some small percentage of your original purchase price credited, maybe something like 10% (think total upgrade price divided by MSRP for all new resources in the package).

I don't know where you,or Alain come up with this number. Sounds like the old adage about 74% of all statistics being made up on the spot.

I do know that the price I paid to upgrade from Gold to Platinum was less than the value of the new resources I wanted that in the upgrade package. Adding up the value of all I got, it's a tremendous bargain. How did they calculate my discount? I have no idea. Does my discounted price give me a good deal? Definitely. What else do I need to know?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 7:55 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
How did they calculate my discount? I have no idea. Does my discounted price give me a good deal? Definitely. What else do I need to know?

 

Reminds me in a flawed microcosm of exchanging the Old Covenant for the New.

Why would anyone want the old deal here?

No I do not understand how I got from where I was last week in the Logos world to where I stand today. I do know I like where I am and appreciate who brought me here.

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Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 8:11 AM

I'll tell you, Logos is offering some tremendous deals. I have been looking at the upgrade offers. I currently have Leader's LE and a few third party package, nothing extreme. The offer for upgrading to Scholar's LE is very good, but I don't want to buy it just to buy it. While the resources are great for most people, most of what I'd gain - if I am real with myself and a good steward - I really would not use the majority of those resources.

Then the upgrade to silver contains quite a few that I would use, but that is just outside of the current budget availability...

So Team Logos any chance of the ECF being added to Scholar's LE??? It is the only resource I bother with the competition for...

Posts 77
Adrian Frost | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 8:21 AM

I have an Excel wish-list of books that I'd like at some point in the future. Upgrading from Gold 3 to Gold 4 got me a number of those resources. The main one for me was the Lexham Septuagint interlinear which is $150 if you buy it direct from Logos. Adding in the NAC volumes that I didn't have and the extra NIGTC that seems to have been included I'm more than happy with the deal I got - $161.

Having said that, at least for the moment with the extra commentary sets I've been able to buy over the last couple of years Platinum didn't make quite as much financial sense for me.

Overall very happy though.

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Posts 9
William Dirr | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 8:24 AM

It is really simple ecomonics. Marginal utility, you will pay for what you think something is worth. As long as the seller is offering a price that meets your utility of a product you will buy it. I have spent thousands and on things that I thought were worth it, and have not purchased things I either couldn't afford at the time or didn't really need. Factor in that Logos is the best Bible Software in the market and here we are. If you want it, or need it, you will pay Xdollars for it.

But anyway, version 4 is awesome!!!!!

God Speed!!!!!!!!

 

Posts 112
BS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 8:46 AM

I don't want to come across as complaining, because I'm definitely not.  I'm extremely excited and happy with the deals Logos is running and I'll be upgrading to Platinum in two weeks.  I'm just pointing out that the customer might be better off to sell off some of the duplicate unlocked resources before upgrading since Logos allows this. 

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 8:49 AM

Bryan Smith:
I'm just pointing out that the customer might be better off to sell off some of the duplicate unlocked resources before upgrading since Logos allows this. 

It's been reported in other threads that they have a moratorium on license transfers until after the first of the year.

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Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:18 AM

I have no idea how Logos figures the discounts.  My experience has been that they are very generous. But  having said that sometimes upgrading to the next package does not make sense.

 I was tempted to upgrade from Gold to Platinum.  But I already have the BDAG and the Baker NTC . So the only other resources I was really interested in were the Baker Exegetical and the Pillar.   I have most of the volumes I want in those series in print.  Sure I would rather have them in electronic format but the cost to upgrade seemed a little to steep to me.  The rest of the stuff offered in the upgrade just did not appeal to me. 

What's my point?  I don't know, I'm just rambling;)  No, my point is that Logos is very generous in their pricing.  But sometimes because of individual circumstances and needs it's of little benefit to some individuals;)  In this case it was definitely worth it for me to cross grade but not upgrade.  

By the way, I'm loving Logos 4!  

Posts 112
BS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:22 AM

Todd Phillips:

It's been reported in other threads that they have a moratorium on license transfers until after the first of the year.

This leads me to believe I'm correct.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 10:37 AM

Todd Phillips:
It's been reported in other threads that they have a moratorium on license transfers until after the first of the year.

I posted this in another thread but the issue is legitimate, not a greedy whine.

Customer Service told me, "Yes you can, but after January." I did not ask what the significance of January is but this presents two problems for me. (-The delay, that is.)

I have been organizing duplicate software (some Logos, some not) for sale on eBay. Now I will have to store all the Logos stuff till 2010!  (When I say duplicate, I mean I had two BEFORE I bought the upgrade. i.e. Courson's NT Commentary -vs- Courson's whole Bible commentary.)

Also, I just agreed to buy an expensive Logos resource from another user but waiting three months for the license transfer should not be neccessary. Especially when that ($800 retail price) software won't even run under Logos 4!

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 10:48 AM

Matthew, are al these sales for personal use, or are you just buying stuff to resell it as a business.  It sounds like you are making a business from this, but I could be mistaken. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 11:41 AM

Joe Miller:

Matthew, are al these sales for personal use, or are you just buying stuff to resell it as a business.  It sounds like you are making a business from this, but I could be mistaken. 

Fair question Joe,

I'm kind of a fanatic (obsessive compulsive) when it comes to Bible software. For decades I used the excuse of homeschooling to justify buying most everything software related. My curiosity of how it works and stupid pursuits like "Can I get my computer to bring me a cup of coffee?" create a glut of surplus, unused software around my home. I just thought I could finally let go of all the excess baggage and concentrate on actually diving in to the nice pool Logos 4 has provided.

When building my library I may purchase a "good deal" like Courson's NT Commentary, then run across a better "good deal" like Courson's whole Bible commentary. Then I sell off the NT only. I believe I bought my Scholar's Gold license for less than I sold my Scholar's Silver license.  One of my "activities" I list on my facebook profile is "Buy High, Sell Low." So, no, it is not a business. On second thought, it is more like the government!

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 12:17 PM

The whole world of re-selling electronic rights is a mess.

Most e-book vendors don't allow resale at all. If you buy a book for $9.99 for Amazon's Kindle, you can't resell it. Now Amazon isn't opposed to used books -- they list them next to new. But used books have built in "friction" that makes them less attractive than new: they get dirty, cracked bindings, aren't stored in a central warehouse and may cost more to ship, etc. They even take time to physically move around.

Many popular books still for sale for new are also for sale for pennies used. But many people will still buy the new to get a clean, unmarked copy.

E-books are just as shiny and new a decade later as they are today. If everyone could read them and resell them immediately in an electronic market, there would only be a need to sell maybe two or three copies. I could use this reference book today for my paper, then put it back into the resale market an hour later. You could buy it, look up the word, and then sell it again. With some cool scripts that automate the sale, we could have one "copy" used by 50+ people in a day. It would be more like a library than a sale. (Libraries DO share copies. But they have friction too -- people borrow the book and hold it for a week or longer.)

I'd prefer we didn't allow resale at all. We sell books in collections at 90% off. If you resold the parts of the content you don't like, one at a time, you could (in time) make more than you paid for the collection. (That's why we now only allow license transfers of SKU's -- the thing you bought. You can't resell a single volume of a bundled collection, which was priced to reflect variable interest in the contents. You can only resell the whole collection, or whole standalone product.)

We do offer resale because many of our users have made huge investments and want to pass them on when they retire. Or because sometimes it's a large asset, and they need the funds.

But it's "the seeds of destruction" for the e-book market.

It gets worse when we keep adding value to our collections. If you bought a 2004 Honda for $20,000, and then added a 6-disc CD changer for $500 and a stand-alone GPS for $500, you wouldn't expect to be able to trade it in for a 2010 Honda also priced at $20,000, but now including those two options, and get a $1,000 back from the dealer.

"Yes, but I could sell those things separately, and use the cash to buy the new Honda." Yes. But your $20,000 Honda will have gone down in value to $6,000, and the CD changer and GPS will probably be worthless.

When you buy a $630 Scholar's Library, and then add a $200 commentary set, they don't ever decay, get dirty, or get old. When we make our products a better deal, and put that $200 commentary set into the still $630 Scholar's Library, we simply can't give you "full value" on the trade. That would be writing you a $200 check.

Now I suppose you could call up and complain about your existing product. You could demand a full refund for everything you'd ever spent with us, going back for years. And since we give awesome service, you'd probably get $830 back from us. Then you could call a different salesperson tomorrow, and buy a $630 new package. And effectively get $200 from us. (Or you could resell your $200 commentary and get the $200 from someone else -- but ultimately from us, since they wouldn't spend that $200 buying it direct.)

Yes, that's the backdoor way to keep getting value from us at no additional cost. If you're willing to give no value to the deal we made when you purchased (that the commentary was worth $200, even if in the future it's part of the bundle). And if you're willing to give no value to the support we provided during the time you owned it. And if you're willing to have us go out of business, and never offer you another good deal in the future.

Because this plan strangles the golden goose.

As I pointed out, most companies treat e-books as non-resaleable products. (Yes, I know about B&N's Nook and its lending. A desperation move to compete with Amazon, as traditional book publishing disappears as a business.) We don't, because we're nice and because our customers often make significant investments in their digital libraries. Nobody cares much that they can't recoup $5 on the $9.99 Kindle purchase; they care more if they can't pass on their $5,000 Logos-compatible library.

The world is still figuring out how to map mental models built for a world where the exchange of goods had friction to a world where many goods can be exchanged friction free. Along the way lots of industries are dieing. (Used booksellers thought the Internet was great, because it made their inventory more visible to the entire world, not just people who wandered into the local shop. Until every used bookstore went online, and people no longer had to pay $5 for the copy right here, because every other copy in the universe was online and easy to find. Look at how many used books are for sale a one cent at Amazon. And the stores have been disappearing.)

I don't know how it'll all shake out. We are constantly trying to balance great service with a need to stay in business, while being fair to our customers. I hope you'll all continue to treat us fairly, too, so that we can be around until the new models are figured out. Is the new upgrade a good deal? Is it a fair exchange of your dollars for that content? If you decide that way, we both benefit. If you want to take it apart book by book, license by license, and sell it to people who'd otherwise also be buying from us, you probably can.

But it'll be the end of new versions that offer more value, and probably lead to the end of bundled discounts in collections, etc. And probably the end of someone at the other end of the phone line. Or website. Or at this desk. :-(

(Or, since I won't go quietly, the end of buying books and getting free service and upgrades. We'd have to move to a sustainable model, like selling you subscription access to a library, with no ownership rights, charging for support, not releasing expensive free code like the iPhone app, etc.)

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 12:55 PM

Bob Pritchett:
We do offer resale because many of our users have made huge investments and want to pass them on when they retire. Or because sometimes it's a large asset, and they need the funds.

Bob,

Many of my software sales never got installed the first time. I bought Courson's whole Bible commentary before I ever installed the NT CD. If I run across a closeout on a title I already have, at 95% discount, I buy it again with the express purpose of giving it (to a preacher) or re-selling it. My wife can testify I don't actually move most of it.
I've recently posted I have no problem at all not reselling titles that were part of an upgrade path. I consider their value has transferred into my current collection. But I do own sealed boxes of software that are now duplicated in subsequent purchases that I think I should have the freedom to sell or give away. I have also been "victimized" by some when buying their used software with the assurance from them it is registerable only to find out it is not. (Right now my account carries a Mcarthur's Lifeworks 1.0 with that problem & I don't think I will ever find the registered owner to get it transferred. I don't even know how to remove it from my account summary so I can re-install the same title from a new sealed box.) I even bought Fortress Press books with a sealed Libronix CD that I didn't get a serial number with. I only wanted the digital version and now can't enjoy them.

My specific situation is such that a subscription could possibly be better for me than buying. My doctors figure my software has a longer life expectancy than me. Subscription models like Questia make a lot more sense than a lifetime membership in the NRA.

I'm not trying to gouge anyone or transfer their wealth into my pocket. I am extremely grateful for what Logos has made possible for me. I did pay for titles that are unused and some people in the trickle-down economy might make use of them. I thought it wise stewardship to sell the excess and pay for the Logos. Most of my "for sale" stuff is not Libronix but Greek Tutor, Pradis and the like. I would just hate to be the "other guys" this week watching Logos make history.

 

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Robert Lombardi | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 4:39 PM

I'm reminded of the Parable of the Vineyard Workers in Matthew 20. Logos posted the price, it was fair, we clicked the buy button and walked onto that vineyard. Now Logos came along and graciously gave some better deals to people after us.

Now's the time where we repent. ;)

 

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 5:42 PM

RobertLombardi:

I'm reminded of the Parable of the Vineyard Workers in Matthew 20. Logos posted the price, it was fair, we clicked the buy button and walked onto that vineyard. Now Logos came along and graciously gave some better deals to people after us.

Now's the time where we repent. ;) 

Are you refering to my posts?

Maybe I am being misunderstood. To my recollection, this week is the first time I ever bought an upgrade offer from Logos. I like to build my library, not deplete it. I also believe I have not sold any resource I have purchased directly from Logos. They were always something I bought from other users. I paid for them and even paid a $120?  transfer fee (right before BobP dropped the price way down.) I accept whatever details are in place. I am just asking if the titles like Baker NT Commentary & the R. A. Torrey Collection were considered to qualify for that great upgrade price. I did not want to try & sell something I am not supposed to. I don't think Logos is trying to claim that all the duplicate software I have was considered for my upgrade price. Most are sealed, unregistered and their existence is unbeknownst to Logos. I think maybe you could say it is dishonest to buy at a low Pre-Pub price & resell short of retail on publication day.

The parable of the Vineyard is one of my favorites. I was involved with Victor Reuther in organizing a committee fighting corruption in the UAW. The one thing this parable is clear on is if you have an agreement, keep it..  I'm just asking for clarification of where the "ownership" lies in titles that were not part of my Scholar's Gold package. If the calculator considered them,  great. If it did not, it would be like a car dealer telling me I can't sell my old car after buying a new car from him even though there was no trade-in credit. I am elated to have Logos 4 and the new resources. I got a better deal than anybody else. So few duplicates and so much savings! I'm just asking so I can stay honest, and be a good steward with excess.

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