Works of Alexander Campbell, Barton W. Stone (restoration preachers)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 27 2009 8:57 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Truth is absolute by definition

How thoroughly Platonic Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 28 2009 9:56 AM

MJ. Smith:
But, seriously, the web site did help me understand that portion of your post - now only puzzled by the use of "ultimate Truth"
MJ. Smith:
The previous discussion allowed me to understand the term "high view" as you use it; it was not part of my theological vocabulary. However, I am fascinated by your attaching the phrase "ultimate Truth" to Scripture. I can use "ultimate Truth" to refer to God or to the "Word of God i.e. Jesus" but I have trouble understanding what it means when applied to Scripture in human (limited) language.

I could  have used "inerrancy" in referring to Scripture and Absolute Truth in referring to God. However, I was referring specifically to the Christian's acceptance of Scripture's testimony of Jesus Christ as the God-man.  "Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son." The Holy Bible : English standard version.5:10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. 2001 (1 Jn

MJ. Smith:

Doing a web search to determine what you meant I found a wonderful line: "The Kenotic Theory was first scientifically formulated by Thomasius in Germany, (1860 to 1880)" http://www.errantskeptics.org/Jesus-Christ-Kenosis.htm

Pardon my sense of humor, but I'm set to write a skit on the science experiment behind this formulation - I assume that Thomasius had to get God's cooperation to generate multiple sons on which to test the various conditions ... does it also require multiple universes? multiple original sins?

I appreciate your sense of humor, and chuckled at your unique insight. That said, most dictionaries list theology as a science, and that due to the theologian's application of the scientific method in his investigations.  The Bible clearly states there are many christs, but only one true Son. You might want to review the various Christological errors, which were the product of mankind. You will find the errors listed in many theology books and articles.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 28 2009 12:02 PM

Gary Butner:
most dictionaries list theology as a science, and that due to the theologian's application of the scientific method in his investigations.

I know that historically (a) science developed out of philosophy/theology and (b) in the late 1500's theology as a science was proposed. However, I am still suprised to see contemporary usage of the equation. The dictionaries that I keep at hand do not define theology as a science nor does theology as I understand it use the scientific method - although it uses rational and systematic methods. I would be very interested in reading why some consider theology a science. Any suggestions?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 28 2009 12:18 PM

MJ. Smith:

Gary Butner:
most dictionaries list theology as a science, and that due to the theologian's application of the scientific method in his investigations.

I know that historically (a) science developed out of philosophy/theology and (b) in the late 1500's theology as a science was proposed. However, I am still suprised to see contemporary usage of the equation. The dictionaries that I keep at hand do not define theology as a science nor does theology as I understand it use the scientific method - although it uses rational and systematic methods. I would be very interested in reading why some consider theology a science. Any suggestions?

I have bills to pay and reports for work. I will attempt to provide additional information later.

sci•ence \ˈsī-ən(t)s\ noun
[Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin scientia, from scient-, sciens having knowledge, from present participle of scire to know; probably akin to Sanskrit chyati he cuts off, Latin scindere to split — more at shed]
(14th century)
1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study the science of theology
b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge have it down to a science
3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method
b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science
4 : a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws culinary science
Merriam-Webster, I. (1996, c1993). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (10th ed.). Springfield, Mass., U.S.A.: Merriam-Webster.
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 28 2009 12:56 PM

Thank you. I was looking under theology rather than science.  I recall now Barth's argument for using the term science vis a vis theology and realize that when I see the word "science" I immediately think of empirical/natural science. This also explains the debate over where "Creation Science" should be taught - philosophy or science. Those against teaching it as science also are using science to mean empirical/natural science.

So yes, my reaction is an embarrassed "well, duh ...." Think meaning 1 or 2 rather than meanings 3 and 4 and you head down the wrong path. I still want to run my empirical study Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 28 2009 1:03 PM

I ran a quick search in Logos of "theology is science," and disovered 41 resources. To my dismay I discovered I cannot copy the results.

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 6:32 PM

David Emme:
On the other hand, there is a so called"Cult" that I learn from quite a bit in my own spirituality. The Local Church of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee.

One helpful reminder: distinguish Watchman Nee from Witness Lee, where the later one claim that he is on the same line as Nee did. And people who attacked Witness Lee and his ministry, saying that they are cults have nothing to do with Watchman Nee's doctrine. Finally, Witness Lee and his ministry is not a cult, the first organization claim that they are cult change their mind on the end of last year, after a thorough study.

By the way, I believe this is a very controversial topic, and we better be conservative: do not judge before we know much about it. (You know, if you say that they are cult, they will react so vigorously. And when I say they, I mean I am not one of them. So, don't get me wrong. I wrote to protect you.)

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Lonnie Ritchie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 24 2010 11:24 AM

I fully agree.  The works of these great "Restorers" would be a fine addition to my Logos library.

Lonnie Ritchie

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 24 2010 12:18 PM

What is a "Restorers"?

By the way, I don't think the Live Stream Ministry would allow the publication of their books in Logos, or anywhere else. What's a pity.

For the Chinese one, I believe that the original Chinese books by Watchman Nee are out of copy right. So I actually make a suggestion on it. But as Chinese titles are never seems (apart from one Chinese bible, in two different characters), there might not be any Chinese titles in the near future.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 2:30 PM

Kolen Cheung:
What is a "Restorers"?

 

Kolen, this is a term given to several (mostly American based) men who started a movement to unify Christians and "restore" New Testament Christianity in the early 1800's.  That movement has taken shape in 3 main streams today:

  • Christian Church (Disciple of Christ)
  • "Independent" Christian Churches/churches of Christ
  • Church of Christ (acapella)

The founders were concerned that Christianity had fragmented into a variety of denominations (many named after "men") and had gotten away from what they thought was a faithful living out of the faith and practice of the early church.  Many of them came from Presbyterian, Methodist, and Baptist backgrounds.  Their desire was to unite under the person and name of Christ (hence, "Christian Church", etc), use the Bible as the "rule of faith" (rather than dividing according to written, man-made creeds), and be very missions minded.  It was at one time the fastest growing movement in America and one of the largest indigenously spawned "denominations." (yes, a non-denominational denomination! Stick out tongue).  Some current well known leaders/preachers in the movement are Max Lucado and Bob Russell (Southeast Christian Church, Louisville, Kentucky).

Unfortunately their ideals have often run into a huge problem: mankind.  The unity movement spawned 3 major streams and several other divisions.  Although the Disciples have taken an Ecumenical approach with several other more "liberal" denominations, and the Independents and "acapella" (they don't use instruments for worship, generally speaking) Church of Christ have made overtures to one another, as have all 3, in various ways.

"Restoring" NT Christianity is a difficult proposition in itself: "what" do you restore?  How do you decide between descriptive and prescriptive, etc.

That is pretty brief, but at least it may help you get a bit of a grip on who is being referred to.

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 149
David A. Peterson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 3:31 PM

Dan DeVilder:
a non-denominational denomination! Stick out tongue

a source of amusement to a close Presbyterian friend, who thought it funny that non-denominational churches would have their own Bible colleges, magazines, and publishing companies.  He would use that very same phrase. . . Is  there nothing more edifying and enjoyable than a friendly discussion on differing points amongst the varied fellowship?

DP

<><

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 3:40 PM

David A. Peterson:

Dan DeVilder:
a non-denominational denomination! Stick out tongue

a source of amusement to a close Presbyterian friend, who thought it funny that non-denominational churches would have their own Bible colleges, magazines, and publishing companies.  He would use that very same phrase. . . Is  there nothing more edifying and enjoyable than a friendly discussion on differing points amongst the varied fellowship?

DP

<><

 

 

I think it is quite amusing, that phrase . . .

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 5:02 PM

Dan DeVilder:
Many of them came from Presbyterian, Methodist, and Baptist backgrounds.

There was also a significant Mennonite component, most notably a group that included my great great grandfather and the group he moved West with. I refer to them as Civil War refugees ... northerners who moved west to avoid the draft.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 455
David Buckham | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 5:24 PM

So Logos, can we have a works of Alexander (and Thomas) Campbell and Barton W. Stone and other restoration preachers...please.

all about Christ,
David 

all about Christ,

David Buckham

http://thinkspurlove.blogspot.com

 

 

Posts 149
David A. Peterson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 5:29 PM

David Buckham:
works of Alexander (and Thomas) Campbell and Barton W. Stone and other restoration preachers

They will be the first I try when the new PBB is available, and there are already some PBB's available. . .

DP

<><

Posts 455
David Buckham | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 5:39 PM

David Peterson,

I already have several of the PBB files from several Restoration Preachers and some other PBB Restoration files. I think I got all my files from MJ. Smith, Cal Habig and Thomas Black. I use Mac so when I began using Logos Mac back in December 08 I lost the ability to access and use all my PBB files (over 1 gig). Can't wait to get that added...

all about Christ,

David Buckham

all about Christ,

David Buckham

http://thinkspurlove.blogspot.com

 

 

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 7:25 PM

Thanks. The one I know is the "Brethen" and the Local Church.

Basically I like the idea of non-denomination, but I do not like to join any of the non-denominational denomination. Actually, there are a couple of us practicing that in the Bay Area in the US and in HK, Toronto, etc.

To formulate the idea of non-denomination into a denomination is very very destructive, as is happened in the history.

Great to learn from you brothers.

Posts 420
Calvin Habig | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 8:50 PM

It's not quite that black & white.  As a group of churches, they (we) have no legal ties, no structural ties, no hierarchy, no "home office."  The only ties are relational. Because of common history and personal relationships there are similarities among churches...but they differ wildly from one part of the country to another. 

Over time there have grown to be a group of colleges, periodicals, mission and benevolent organizations, etc. that  end up being supported mostly by individual congregations from that background.  But no one can officially say one is in or out. Para-church organizations only exist as long as their supporting congregations believe in their mission and their effectiveness.

It is our natural tendency of the Church worldwide to worry about "what tribe are you a part of?"  Because of that a name (or names, since no one can state that there is an official or authoritative name) came to be used--but mostly by those who are on the outside looking in.  (Although how can someone be outside something that doesn't exist??)

The second biggest division came over just what you say: trying to make a denomination out of a non-denomination(*).  Because of the legal system, when a group decided to create a denomination out of this non-denomination, congregations had to declare themselves "out" of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) denomination or legally they were going to be considered a part of it...something that was anathema to most of the movement. 

Even today in many parts of the country if you tried to claim either the churches (small c) of Christ or the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ are a denomination, you would have a fight on your hand. 

Every movement has its dark and frustrating sides, but I still believe that the Restoration Movement has something vital to contribute to the Church of Christ in the current day...just as other streams of the Church have something to contribute to the Church...and to us (the RM).

History class dismissed.

 

*(during the big age of church mergers in the 1950s & 1960s, a a group of more ecumenically minded and generally left leaning academics wanted to form something hard & structured so they could merge with someone else... basically the United Church of Christ).

Posts 420
Calvin Habig | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 8:53 PM

That's interesting MJ.  As one who has studied & specialised in Restoration History for decades, that is a stream of which I have never heard.  I don't remember it ever being mentioned in any of the major histories.  Any documentation?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 9:36 PM

Calvin Habig:
I don't remember it ever being mentioned in any of the major histories.  Any documentation?

I read it when looking for the various types of Restorationists which might have their own hymnals. Unfortunately, I don't recall where I read it but it was a group of Mennonites in Tennessee, a group that liked the developing Gospel music (as opposed to hymns). My first guess would be that it was on the website of the Illinois (or is it Indiana) website of the library collection of early Church of Christ hymnals. The only other thing I remember specifically about the article was that it referred to a New England movement which preceded and semi-merged with the Restorations that (to over simplify) laid the seeds for the Disciples of Christ division in the 1920's. Sorry but my interest was with the hymnals not the "denomination"Embarrassed

The family names that I am familiar with are Swiss Germans whom emigrated via Amsterdam, settled in Lancaster County, moved through Tennessee then Missouri and finally California ... although their attitude was clearly Oregon territory - California ... something like that. Most who settled in Washington eventually moved to California.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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