PBB Bibles - we need to be able to assign a versification type

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jul 6 2011 4:03 PM | Locked

As I informed in another thread, PBB Bibles are not recognizing Bible Milestones correctly if there is a different versification used than the usual one in the English Bibles. Since there are more versification systems in use, I see 2 solutions:

1.  Logos would recognize it automatically and mapped verses correctly.

2. Add a manual choice menu for us in assigning the right versification type to the resource.

Is there any other (better) solution?

Bohuslav

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 4:11 PM | Locked

Bohuslav Wojnar:
if there is a different versification used than the usual one in the English Bibles

I wouldn't even have a clue as to what the "usual one" is in English.Big Smile

However, there is also the need to be able to specify the versification for resources that are tied to a versification other than one's primary Bible.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 10:45 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:

Bohuslav Wojnar:
if there is a different versification used than the usual one in the English Bibles

I wouldn't even have a clue as to what the "usual one" is in English.Big Smile

However, there is also the need to be able to specify the versification for resources that are tied to a versification other than one's primary Bible.

I know Smile

I assumed usual is KJV versification (ESV has the same) since it is the end result when I compiled the PBB Bibles. We really need the menu to choose from in building the PBB versified resources.

Bohuslav

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 7 2011 12:35 PM | Locked

Bohuslav Wojnar:

2. Add a manual choice menu for us in assigning the right versification type to the resource.

As I replied in that other thread, the manual control will be specifying the Bible data type to use in the milestone tag (e.g., "[[@BibleB21: ]]").

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 7 2011 2:10 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:

Bohuslav Wojnar:

2. Add a manual choice menu for us in assigning the right versification type to the resource.

As I replied in that other thread, the manual control will be specifying the Bible data type to use in the milestone tag (e.g., "[[@BibleB21: ]]").

Sounds excellent Bradley. Thank you.

Bohuslav

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 7 2011 4:05 PM | Locked

Bohuslav Wojnar:
I assumed usual is KJV versification (ESV has the same)

There are four differences (that I could find) between the ESV and the KJV in the 66 book canon (many more if you compare the Oxford edition of the ESV with the Deuterocanonical books with the complete KJV).

3 John 15 in the ESV is 3 John 14 in the KJV (with the inverse - 3 John 14 in KJV is 3 John 14-15 in the ESV).

Revelation 12:17 in the ESV is 12:17-13:1 in the KJV (and 12:17-12:18 in the NRSV)

1 Chronicles 4:17 in the ESV is 1 Chronicles 4:17-18 in the KJV (1 Chronicles 4:18 in ESV is 4:18 in the KJV, but the boundary between 17 and 18 is different in the two editions).

1 Chronicles 27:30 in the ESV is 27:30-31 in the KJV (again, basically a difference in where the break between the verses happens - they both have the same number of verses in the chapter).

Of these four, only the first is really troublesome, since it means if one was using KJV references to validate milestones 3 John 15 would come up as an invalid verse. The others would all get you pretty close. Not sure why I bothered to share, other than that this post was a good excuse to explain why we ended up with so many distinct Bible data types in logos 4 - there really are differences between most Bibles.

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 7 2011 9:50 PM | Locked

Vincent Setterholm:
Not sure why I bothered to share, other than that this post was a good excuse to explain why we ended up with so many distinct Bible data types in logos 4 - there really are differences between most Bibles.

Thank you for sharing that. It is really very interesting to realize that even between those 2 versions that seam to use the same versification are so many differences.

So when we use (as a milestones in a pbb resource) just simple [[@bible...]] what type of mapping we actually get? KJV?

Bohuslav

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2011 1:04 AM | Locked

Bohuslav Wojnar:
So when we use (as a milestones in a pbb resource) just simple [[@bible...]] what type of mapping we actually get? KJV?

Earlier in this discussion Bradley said it was NRSV.

Posts 2733
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2011 6:25 AM | Locked

Mark Barnes:

Bohuslav Wojnar:
So when we use (as a milestones in a pbb resource) just simple [[@bible...]] what type of mapping we actually get? KJV?

Earlier in this discussion Bradley said it was NRSV.

You mean in the other thread... Yes, I see it now. Thank you Mark. Thank you Bradley. It started to be really fun to find all the Bible Data Types. Smile It opens much more possibilities to the simple Bible type in the PB menu. Looks really interesting. Yes

P.S. Now I need to find out what Bible Data Type Polish Bibles use... it looks like KJV but it is different in some places like Ecclesiastes 8:18 (KJV has just Ecc 8:17).

 

Bohuslav

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2011 10:15 AM | Locked

Bohuslav Wojnar:
Now I need to find out what Bible Data Type Polish Bibles use

  1. Right-click in the Bible
  2. Make sure Reference is selected.
  3. Choose Search this Resource

The Bible datatype will be shown in the search syntax. You can see the official 'name' of the datatype in the resources information panel.

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2011 10:33 AM | Locked

Bohuslav Wojnar:

P.S. Now I need to find out what Bible Data Type Polish Bibles use... it looks like KJV but it is different in some places like Ecclesiastes 8:18 (KJV has just Ecc 8:17).

We don't appear to have any Bible data types that support that verse. (And I can't find any mentions of it by searching for plain text in my library. The only valid Google hits I found appear to be a miscitation of Eccl 8:1 or Eccl 9:18.)

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2011 10:35 AM | Locked

Mark Barnes:

Bohuslav Wojnar:
So when we use (as a milestones in a pbb resource) just simple [[@bible...]] what type of mapping we actually get? KJV?

Earlier in this discussion Bradley said it was NRSV.

For legacy reasons the default Bible datatype also includes 'The Epistle to the Laodiceans' from the Stuttgart Vulgate appendix and 'Psalms of Solomon' and 'Odes' from Rahlfs Septuagint. There may be some other deviations from NRSV implemented for legacy support that I don't know about.

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2011 10:53 AM | Locked

Vincent Setterholm:

For legacy reasons the default Bible datatype also includes 'The Epistle to the Laodiceans' from the Stuttgart Vulgate appendix and 'Psalms of Solomon' and 'Odes' from Rahlfs Septuagint. There may be some other deviations from NRSV implemented for legacy support that I don't know about.

The only difference (in the "bible" data type) from NRSV in the Protestant Bible is 2 Corinthians, where "bible" follows the KJV/ESV/NIV/NASB/etc. by including 2 Cor 13:14. (More specifically, v12 (NRSV) is split into vv12-13 (KJV) and then v13 (NRSV) becomes v14 (KJV). KJV follows TR by including "Amen", but then the KJV adds a further subscription to v14 regarding authorship.)

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2011 12:16 PM | Locked

Mark Barnes:

Bohuslav Wojnar:
Now I need to find out what Bible Data Type Polish Bibles use

  1. Right-click in the Bible
  2. Make sure Reference is selected.
  3. Choose Search this Resource

The Bible datatype will be shown in the search syntax. You can see the official 'name' of the datatype in the resources information panel.

Thank you Mark. That helps. I found way to find it by opening the resource in Libronix3 Surprise There is index (of data type) very clearly stated there.

Bohuslav

Posts 2733
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2011 12:22 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:

Bohuslav Wojnar:

P.S. Now I need to find out what Bible Data Type Polish Bibles use... it looks like KJV but it is different in some places like Ecclesiastes 8:18 (KJV has just Ecc 8:17).

We don't appear to have any Bible data types that support that verse. (And I can't find any mentions of it by searching for plain text in my library. The only valid Google hits I found appear to be a miscitation of Eccl 8:1 or Eccl 9:18.)

Thank you Bradley. I tried to compare all English and Czech Bibles with the Polish one I wanted to compile (Biblia Warszawska) and no one worked really. THe closest was Czech Bible 21st Century Translation, so I used the Data Type of that one and changed in all places that differed. It differs in the following places:

Gen 31:55, Ex 8:29-32, Ex 22:31, Lev 6:24-30, 2Sam 18:33, 1King 4:21-34, Neh 4:18-23, Ecc 8:18, Is 64:12, Hos 13:16, Joel 3:6-24

I had to change sometimes whole chapter numbering because of one verse. Quite a work. Smile

EDIT:  As I wrote this post I found All of the places except 2 (1King 4:21-34 and Ecc 8:18)  are blue with ESV Bible text in RefTagger... I need to look at it more closely.

Bohuslav

Posts 2733
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2011 12:45 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
We don't appear to have any Bible data types that support that verse. (And I can't find any mentions of it by searching for plain text in my library. The only valid Google hits I found appear to be a miscitation of Eccl 8:1 or Eccl 9:18.)

Actually in Polish Biblia Warszawska there is a unique situation: they use first part of a verse Ecc 7:29 as verse 29 and 7:29b as verse 8:1 and then you end up with Ecc 8:18 Smile

EDITED:  Old Bible of Kralitz has it also split but they have Ecc 7:29b as Ecc 7:30 Smile So they end up with regular 17 verses in the 8th chapter.

Bohuslav

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2011 12:48 PM | Locked

Bohuslav Wojnar:

Gen 31:55, Ex 8:29-32, Ex 22:31, Lev 6:24-30, 2Sam 18:33, 1King 4:21-34, Neh 4:18-23, Ecc 8:18, Is 64:12, Hos 13:16, Joel 3:6-24

I had to change sometimes whole chapter numbering because of one verse. Quite a work. Smile

Apart from Ecc 8:18 (as already mentioned) and Joel 3:22-24, these verse references can all be parsed by "Bible" (or "BibleNRSV"). 

Ecc 8:18 isn't found in any of the versemaps we have defined, and I only found one Bible (Bibelen NO 78/85, from SESB3) that supports Joel 3:22-26 (which are probably a different way of numbering vv22-24 from your Polish Bible).

It looks as though you may have found another versification scheme; unfortunately, we don't have any way to easily extend the verse mapping system built into Logos 4; you'll have to pick the closest supported scheme (probably actually "Bible" in this case) and include the text of Eccl 8:18 as part of v17 (with no v18 milestone), for example.

Bohuslav Wojnar:

EDIT:  As I wrote this post I found All of the places except 2 (1King 4:21-34 and Ecc 8:18)  are blue with ESV Bible text in RefTagger... I need to look at it more closely.

RefTagger doesn't validate chapter/verse numbers; my guess is that it doesn't like "1King" and "Ecc" as abbreviations. 1 Kings 4:21-34 and Eccles 8:18 probably work.

Posts 2733
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2011 1:01 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:

Bohuslav Wojnar:

Gen 31:55, Ex 8:29-32, Ex 22:31, Lev 6:24-30, 2Sam 18:33, 1King 4:21-34, Neh 4:18-23, Ecc 8:18, Is 64:12, Hos 13:16, Joel 3:6-24

I had to change sometimes whole chapter numbering because of one verse. Quite a work. Smile

Apart from Ecc 8:18 (as already mentioned) and Joel 3:22-24, these verse references can all be parsed by "Bible" (or "BibleNRSV"). 

Ecc 8:18 isn't found in any of the versemaps we have defined, and I only found one Bible (Bibelen NO 78/85, from SESB3) that supports Joel 3:22-26 (which are probably a different way of numbering vv22-24 from your Polish Bible).

It looks as though you may have found another versification scheme; unfortunately, we don't have any way to easily extend the verse mapping system built into Logos 4; you'll have to pick the closest supported scheme (probably actually "Bible" in this case) and include the text of Eccl 8:18 as part of v17 (with no v18 milestone), for example.

Bohuslav Wojnar:

EDIT:  As I wrote this post I found All of the places except 2 (1King 4:21-34 and Ecc 8:18)  are blue with ESV Bible text in RefTagger... I need to look at it more closely.

RefTagger doesn't validate chapter/verse numbers; my guess is that it doesn't like "1King" and "Ecc" as abbreviations. 1 Kings 4:21-34 and Eccles 8:18 probably work.

You are right Bradley (no surprise on my side Smile) I made mistake with Joel 3:22-24 it should be Joel 3:22-26. You are right also with the RefTagger Embarrassed

The matter of Eccles 8:18 is as I wrote already. But it might be just that one Bible.

Bohuslav

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2011 3:40 PM | Locked

I tried @BibleESV and the differences are much bigger. It looks the closest is really @BibleB21. Czech Study Translation is using BibleUT data type. What kind of versification is it? BHS?

It looks very similar to BibleB21 but there are a few differences.

Bohuslav

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2011 10:30 PM | Locked

Bohuslav Wojnar:

Czech Study Translation is using BibleUT data type. What kind of versification is it? BHS?

It looks very similar to BibleB21 but there are a few differences.

BibleUT (I'm not sure what the acronym stands for) uses BHS for the Old Testament and NA27 for the New Testament. It doesn't define any Apocryphal books.

BibleB21 is mostly BHS for the OT, but has its own custom versification for Job. (It splits Job 31:40 into two verses.) It follows "Bible" for the NT, except for Acts where it follows the NA27 (by combining Acts 19:40–41 into one verse).

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