I feel a little misled
Comments
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KevinJones said:
Not to mention: cannot even use L4 in VMware on my macbook bc it's different from L3. It is so sluggish it won't even run. I would have liked to known that before purchasing and making the switch as well.
I'm using L4 on VMware 3 with XP. I used it about three hours today and it ran as well or if not better than L3 (partly because of improvements in VMware I think). If you want to swap settings, we might be able to improve your performance. Just email me at donovan (at) dmpnet.org
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DanFugett said:
I didnt go back and look at it but the demo mentions printing withot volunteering printing doesnt even exist. Now, I gave myself about a week to gauge my response but in marketing we have a name for that and it isnt a pretty one.
Dan, with all respect... your judgment is not correct. There is printing in Logos 4 in some cases. More is coming but I do not see any problem if promo already uses the printing if you really can print (graphics for instance), send to Power Point etc.
Bohuslav
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Yes.
I applaus the honesty and accepting responsibility too.
Also, I agree that the more honesty now will get the already loyal customers over this little blip. Ok, maybe this time Logos dropped the ball and rushed to market. The kind of mature responsible handling that you are skeaking of keeps loyalty in tact.
Dan Fugett
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DanFugett said:
Using printing again as an example, the sales demo praises the new printing functionality, which doesnt even exist. I didnt go back and look at it but the demo mentions printing withot volunteering printing doesnt even exist. Now, I gave myself about a week to gauge my response but in marketing we have a name for that and it isnt a pretty one.
Dan Fugett
Dan,
I've viewed the opening promo video and the 5 pages of features and no where does it say printing is possible, let alone praise it - as far as I can see. I think your desire to have printing made you assume that they were saying that.
I understand your frustration, but don't blame them for saying something they didn't
If I'm wrong, I apologize right now. But I'd like to see where it is and how strongly it is "praised."
Chris
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Bob P said:
Sure, it's gotten a little more flexible and powerful, but
for the most part the criticisms justly leveled against it in 1984 are still
true. It's a closed system that simplifies things. You're constrained to one hardware
vendor. What's changed isn't the Mac, it's the world. Computers aren't huge
investments by people who really need or like technology. They're toasters;
common household appliances used by everyone.Agreed. The vast majority of people I talk to who use a computer, just want it to work and if necessary are willing to pay extra for it to do so. I think while it is a frustration to not be able to do things like change and manage my resource directory for L4, the majority of people will be glad if the current strategy just manages things for them. The big improvement I see is that don't have to worry any longer about keeping download purchases any more because the system will just download/update them if you need them. This is progress!
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Hi Barbara,BarbaraSilverstein said:I called customer support today with my list of missing or compromised features, and spend 90 minutes waiting and talking to someone who wasn't able to help. i was pretty peeved, so i was kicked upstairs and was able to speak with Dan Pritchett amazingly enough. I came away from that conversation with this information: Logos 4 isn't really complete yet. They haven't really made that clear to the public. They are really working hard on it. Right now, the available support staff isn't fully trained to answer the tougher questions beyond installation and other basic questions. The web site also isn't fully up to date to support the new Logos. Currently, the best source of support are the YouTube videos.
Before I spoke with Dan, I was ready to toss in the towel on L4 as a waste of my money and time. However, a simple honest answer from him, that the product is still being refined, but a lot of effort is going into this, put this into perspective, and I'm now willing to wait a little longer for the product to get into shape.
My plea is to please me more honest with the public, even if it means a bit of delayed revenue. If others are like me, this is a loyal consumer base.
Barbara Silverstein
I'm glad you pursued the issue(s) with Logos and that you were able to talk to Dan Pritchett. I'm coming from a different set of circumstances than you are; I was a beta tester and had to rely very totally on the beta testing forum for all my information about v.4. So, we had Bob Pritchett, and several programmers/techsupport giving us information not only about the different beta versions released but also about the kinds of things that you mention, e.g. that L4 was going to be released and there would be things missing that would be added. It took me almost a month to adjust to all the changes and finally, to accept them and even love L4.
It sounds like the worst part was not being given the whole story before you purchased the upgrade. And it also sounds like communicating directly with Logos helped you. I'm glad you posted your story and have had a chance to read what all of us have gone through. I don't think CHANGE has been easy for anyone, including all of Logos staff.
I really hope you like L4. The videos really go a long way towards becoming acclimated to the program. God Bless!
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I, too, am annoyed that the Mac engine I paid for is now orphaned. I really think that Logos should consider subtracting the amount we paid for the Mac engine from the cost of any upgrade.
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Yes I agree. It never got off the ground.
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I agree with John on the printing issue. Print and/or Copy and paste is it seems impossible once you have collected quotes and refs in either clippings or notes. Yes, you can copy and paste your own written note (you could have saved yourself the bother and kept Word open and typed the note there) but you cannot copy the quotes and the notes together. So now you have to copy the quote from the book, write a note so its connected in Logos 4, copy the note aswell, paste it to the quote in word. This is very poor. Do you know of any other program for research that has no copy/paste, export or printing capacity in this way? A program which actually prevents you from printing, copying and pasting and exporting documents you have created within the program? Logos really think printing and export and copy/paste are insignificant parts of a research program? This is astonishing to me. Its like saying why not upgrade from two eyes to just the one?
What is concerning is the apparent lack of understanding that it IS important to the program. To say, "its coming" in that context is also concerning to me. WHAT is coming? Will I be able to print and export/copy and paste to the same degree as in previous versions? It is too late, I didnt notice the big sign on the site telling me that I would not be able to print from the program anymore and I went ahead and bought it...... so now I shall just have to wait and hope that someone working for Logos might use the program something like the way I used too....
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Edward...
Breath...in....out....in...out...
You have two options:
1.) Get a refund and when printing capability is returned to v4...evaluate it in light of your needs and either purchase, or not....
2.) copy/paste to a 3rd party program; I use Onenote....others use other things.
Nobody at Logos said that printing wasn't important....not once.
They just said that it's less important FOR MANY PEOPLE...and there are a lot on this forum that don't print right from logos...
I never have.
You are free to choose #1 or #2....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
Breath...in....out....in...out...
You have two options:
1.) Get a refund and when printing capability is returned to v4...evaluate it in light of your needs and either purchase, or not....
2.) copy/paste to a 3rd party program; I use Onenote....others use other things.
You are free to choose #1 or #2....
I think this thread is not about what options Edward or the thread author have; rather, it's about the choices Logos has made and the options Logos has from this point forward. Edward's options are so obvious it's almost insulting to list them for him.
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Bryan Smith said:
Edward's options are so obvious it's almost insulting to list them for him.
NO..what's insulting is that Edward sits here and complains about something that Logos is working on and he can do nothing about it....
He throws out superlatives like: "This is astonishing to me." and "Its like saying why not upgrade from two eyes to just the one?" and "the apparent lack of understanding that it IS important to the program."
AND THEN he ends with the fatalistic:
"It is too late, I didnt notice the big sign on the site telling me that
I would not be able to print from the program anymore and I went ahead
and bought it...... so now I shall just have to wait and hope that
someone working for Logos might use the program something like the way
I used too...."As if there are no other options than complain about what he doesn't have and wants.....
I was pointing that he HAS options...he may not like them...they may be temporary...but they are more than just "IT'S TOO LATE"
And PS: Logos made this choice based on market research, usage reports, and 4 years of planning....Edward (like the rest of us) is going by what HE LIKES BEST...so the remark that "Logos has an apparent lack of understanding..." is just silly....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
2.) copy/paste to a 3rd party program; I use Onenote....others use other things.
Notes have been a problem for several years. On the old WIKI I compiled a list of programs that LOGOS users recommended as alternatives to Notes. Here is that list:
You might want to take a look at the titles listed on the old WIKI:
* TheJournal: http://www.davidrm.com/thejournal/
* TexNotesPro4: http://www.gemx.com
* MSOneNote: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX010858031033.aspx
* ScholarsAid: http://www.scholarsaid.com
* InfoSelect: http://www.miclog.com/is/index.shtml
* MyBase: http://www.wjjsoft.com/
* GoBinder: http://www.gobinder.com/gobinder2005.aspx
* InfoTree2004 http://www.nextword.com/InfoTree2004.htm
* WhizFolders http://www.whizfolders.com
* ContentSaver http://www.macropool.com/en/index.html
* Libronix Notes
These tools have been recommended by several of the participants on the news groups as alternatives to the Notes provided by LIBRONIX. My personal favorite is The Journal, but each person is looking for their favorite set of features, so you might prefer something else.
I have not verified all the links - though they worked when I added them to the WIKI. I use both One Note from Microsoft and TheJournal from David Michael. TheJournal can link back to LOGOS, though LOGOS cannot, at this point, link back to TheJournal. The same is true for One Note.Perhaps those who use the other programs could post some short comments as well.
I have reposted this list in the past, but with the many new users in the forums, it might be helpful to take another look at the available options.
Blessings,
Floyd
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Robert Pavich said:
Nobody at Logos said that printing wasn't important....not once.
They just said that it's less important FOR MANY PEOPLE...and there are a lot on this forum that don't print right from logos...
I never have.
You are right Robert. I have never printed anything from Logos. Logos is my bread and butter for many years. All my sermons and teaching is prepared on Logos, exported to the MS Word and... seldom printed since I preach and teach from the laptop. So, even printing would be available in Logos, I have no use for that.
And, according to the Logos research (mentioned on this forum by Bob), I am not so much unique in that.
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
You are right Robert. I have never printed anything from Logos. Logos is my bread and butter for many years. All my sermons and teaching is prepared on Logos, exported to the MS Word and... seldom printed since I preach and teach from the laptop. So, even printing would be available in Logos, I have no use for that.
And, according to the Logos research (mentioned on this forum by Bob), I am not so much unique in that.
Ditto. rarely print from Logos (except verse lists). I always copy and paste to word so I can format it with margins, font sizes, etc. I will concede though that the lack of ability to copy and paste search results into Word at present does bump it up the "I wish I could" list.
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I doubt it is any consolation, but Logos for Mac did not have printing until several releases later... I think it was 1.2 actually. There was a similar tone voiced by some users at that time.
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Philip Spitzer said:Bohuslav Wojnar said:
You are right Robert. I have never printed anything from Logos. Logos is my bread and butter for many years. All my sermons and teaching is prepared on Logos, exported to the MS Word and... seldom printed since I preach and teach from the laptop. So, even printing would be available in Logos, I have no use for that.
And, according to the Logos research (mentioned on this forum by Bob), I am not so much unique in that.
Ditto. rarely print from Logos (except verse lists). I always copy and paste to word so I can format it with margins, font sizes, etc. I will concede though that the lack of ability to copy and paste search results into Word at present does bump it up the "I wish I could" list.
I think the last time I printed from Logos was back in 2000 though even then I might have copied it to Word to print out since I wanted the entire Didache for a group at church. The thing that puzzles me is why someone would be a whiney cry-baby about temporarily not being able to print from L4 when it is possible to simply print from L3. It sounds like kvetching simply for the sake of kvetching.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
The thing that puzzles me is why someone would be a whiney cry-baby
And his name shall be called George the blunt.
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Philip Spitzer said:
Ditto. rarely print from Logos (except verse lists). I always copy and paste to word so I can format it with margins, font sizes, etc. I will concede though that the lack of ability to copy and paste search results into Word at present does bump it up the "I wish I could" list.
Although I would like the capability to print, I have never printed directly from Logos. I mostly use OneNote and when needing to format a paper research style, I use cut & paste Word. I'm still playing with Version 4 so it's no big deal at the moment. It WOULD be a big deal if I were a seminary student writing papers.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Philip Spitzer said:
And his name shall be called George the blunt.
He's on the list of people that I'll never forget.... [:S]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Interesting discussion...
I've used Logos for years to do my Bible research and prepare lessons and sermons, but I honestly did not know you could print from Logos 3... I always copy information to Word, format and work on it, and print from Word.
My two cents.
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Nah, George is a sharp guy. Just very direct.Philip Spitzer said:And his name shall be called George the blunt.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
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Philip Spitzer said:
Are you sure you didn't mean derelict?
Wow, Philip, you taught me a new English word. I will use it now every day [:D]
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
Wow, Philip, you taught me a new English word. I will use it now every day
shhhh....Don't tell anyone, but I had to use word to figure out the spelling :-)
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I too have been and am a loyal customer. I go all the way back to the CD Word from Dallas Theo. Sem. Every time Logos has introduced new versions, I have eagerly upgraded. So too did I with L4. I spoke with people at Logos before purchasing to make sure that it would work on my VMware Fusion partition on my MAC. They assured me that it would. (At that point in the discussion, they should have said, but you're going to need a whole lot of hard drive space for this massive program. It is now 13 hours later and I'm still not up and running (Yes, I spoke with two very nice Tech Ser people today). I really believe that a significant amount of additional information should be supplied to customers when they purchase the product. For instance the customers should be told:
1. Due to the word for word indexing feature of L4, please plan on allocating double the hard drive space that the resources of the program require.
(in my case, I purchased and upgraded from Gold to Platinum. When I started loading the program it suggested that I needed 11 GB of space. What I was later told was that because I am such a good customer (my editorial) and have a whole lot of additional resources above my gold package, that L4 merges the platinum package with pre-existing resources [now that's good]. What is a problem is that the indexing function then doubles the space needed as it indexes word for word what you have. I use my computer for everything. Knowing that I need 34 gigs of additional space instead of 17 gigs is something I would think I'd be told upfront.
2. Please note that unlike earlier versions, L4 will not allow you to customize your library.
(This is for me a fairly significant disappointment. While I was eager to have access to additional resources, there are some things that I don't want to have on my Hard Drive. Being forced to include them is not good in my view. But at least I should be told so I can make accommodations.
3. Please note that depending on the speed of your Internet connection, the installation process may take 12 - 14 hours.
(I'm not being funny here. When you have a history with a product, you kind of know what to expect. When I called Logos and was put on hold the animated voice said, if you start Logos 4 and the library page looks blank don't panic, it can take a long time for the program to index your resources. I think that some statement like that should be included on the page of the email that one receives after purchasing the product.
I'm nervous about the automated updates, etc. Again, for those who have to manage resources I'd be concerned about things being added to my program that I may not want or that may take me over my limit. Having discretion for those decisions is something we should be given in my opinion. Nevertheless, I'm still a devoted customer and fan of Logos. The TechnoRev
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CliffordLFrazier said:
1. Due to the word for word indexing feature of L4, please plan on allocating double the hard drive space that the resources of the program require.
Hiding resources does remove them completely from your library. Tools>Program Settings>Scroll to the bottom "Hidden resources" Section
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CliffordLFrazier said:
2. Please note that unlike earlier versions, L4 will not allow you to customize your library.
(This is for me a fairly significant disappointment. While I was eager to have access to additional resources, there are some things that I don't want to have on my Hard Drive. Being forced to include them is not good in my view. But at least I should be told so I can make accommodations.
Actually you can hide resources, which does remove the file from your hard drive. Open up the Program Settings and scroll down to the Hidden Resources section and expand it. Then you can drag books from the library to this section and they will be removed on program restart. Yes it's tedious, but it works (I have ~600 resources hidden).
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Todd Phillips said:
which does remove the file from your hard drive.
i am guessing if you want them back later, that you can drag them from Hidden Resources. Right ?
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CliffordLFrazier said:
What is a problem is that the indexing function then doubles the space needed as it indexes word for word what you have.
I've not seen this before. How do you arrive at this conclusion (not challenging here, just wanting to understand).
CliffordLFrazier said:2. Please note that unlike earlier versions, L4 will not allow you to customize your library.
(This is for me a fairly significant disappointment. While I was eager to have access to additional resources, there are some things that I don't want to have on my Hard Drive. Being forced to include them is not good in my view. But at least I should be told so I can make accommodations.
At this point in L4 development, you will have to download
everything once. After that you can hide a resource and it won't update
or download again. Further downloads will be automatic, though there are some significantly good reasons for this. L4 and L4 resources are integrally related. Changes to the program will sometimes require changes to resources. By pushing these changes together Logos hopes to avoid situations where users break the program by mismatching old and new, then calling tech support for help. This diminished 'granularity' is designed to save Logos $millions in tech support over the next few years.CliffordLFrazier said:spoke with people at Logos before purchasing to make sure that it would work on my VMware Fusion partition on my MAC. They assured me that it would.
Hate to say this, but L4 is known to have lag issues for some using it through VMware. You may or may not experience this. Check with other Mac users in one of the Mac forums for their opinion. Logos does know this and is working on it. In the meantime L4 is usable, but can lag at times.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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steveclark said:Todd Phillips said:
which does remove the file from your hard drive.
i am guessing if you want them back later, that you can drag them from Hidden Resources. Right ?
Yep. Actually you can just delete them from the hidden list, and they will be re-downloaded.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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steveclark said:
i am guessing if you want them back later, that you can drag them from Hidden Resources. Right ?
Right.
CAUTION: If the resource was updated between the time of hiding it and un-hiding it, you may need to let L4 download the newer version before using it, or be prepared for L4 to freeze, stagger, or crash. Resources and the engine are more closely tied together in L4 than L3, and are still somewhat of a moving target. Expect frequent updates for the next few months.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
I've not seen this before. How do you arrive at this conclusion (not challenging here, just wanting to understand).
I think what he means is that you have one file on your computer that is the actual resource, .logos4, file. Then you have it adding to an index (multi-gig index) since the index is basically another copy of the resource sorted differently.
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Philip Spitzer said:
I think what he means is that you have one file on your computer that is the actual resource, .logos4, file. Then you have it adding to an index (multi-gig index) since the index is basically another copy of the resource sorted differently.
Okay, but my index is only about 20% the size of my resource directory. I don't doubt that the indexer requires some wiggle room, but I've not seen anything that says it needs 2X the space of the resource directory. (Though it's never been a good idea to have less than 25% of your hard drive space free.)
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
Okay, but my index is only about 20% the size of my resource directory. I don't doubt that the indexer requires some wiggle room, but I've not seen anything that says it needs 2X the space of the resource directory. (Though it's never been a good idea to have less than 25% of your hard drive space free.)
I took his statement to mean that overall you need about twice the amount of space when you have both a resource file and an index file as you would if it were an either/or scenario.
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I've never printed from Logos, either. But, it is obviously important to those that do. In the same way that effective/accessible syntax searches are to those that do. A small porportion, but not unimportant. What we all need to do is not just whine but ask for a feature and explain what we would like it to be like. What to print, what kinds of control over printing, etc.
Chris
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Todd Phillips said:
Yes it's tedious, but it works (I have ~600 resources hidden).
so that leave you with a couple of bibles and not much else....
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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DominicM said:Todd Phillips said:
Yes it's tedious, but it works (I have ~600 resources hidden).
so that leave you with a couple of bibles and not much else....
Just the Louis Segond French Bible and a Coptic dictionary. It's amazing what you learn when you limit yourself.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Thomas Black said:
Nah, George is a sharp guy. Just very direct.Philip Spitzer said:And his name shall be called George the blunt.
Would you rather he be obfuscating?
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Ha ha! Love it !Todd Phillips said:DominicM said:Todd Phillips said:Yes it's tedious, but it works (I have ~600 resources hidden).
so that leave you with a couple of bibles and not much else....
Just the Louis Segond French Bible and a Coptic dictionary. It's amazing what you learn when you limit yourself.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Todd Phillips said:
Of course not! Who needs the Greek when you have the original French!?
Anybody knows when Logos will have a Reverse Interlinear English French Bible? [:D]
Bohuslav
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DominicM said:Todd Phillips said:
Yes it's tedious, but it works (I have ~600 resources hidden).
so that leave you with a couple of bibles and not much else....
The truth is that the my hidden resources are about 1/4 of my total resource licenses. It probably also represents the all stuff that Logos could drop from the Platinum collection, and I wouldn't bat an eye.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Thank you all for your input. Now that the cool evening has arrived, I'm more mellow about L4. The doubling was what one of the tech people told me. However, I called back and we actually looked at the resources folder and the indexing folder. The ratio was about 1:4 Where the indexing folder was about 1/4th the size of the resources folder.
I'm going to continue with the L4 on Fusion. I understand that the MAC version will be complete by the end of the year or early 2010. I guess that I'm getting older and need to watch the reaction to change principle, as I am not ready to declare myself to be old - smile.
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Robert Pavich said:Bryan Smith said:
Edward's options are so obvious it's almost insulting to list them for him.
NO..what's insulting is that Edward sits here and complains about something that Logos is working on and he can do nothing about it....
Robert, breathe in .... out .... in.....outyour second option, copy paste to onenote. I have one note. Explain for me how you paste something like a set of clippings you have put together into Onenote. If I can do this I am set.ThanksEddie
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ps, it was not my intention to insult you Robert. Really.
Eddie
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Edward hyndman said:
ps, it was not my intention to insult you Robert. Really.
Eddie
Ed,
NO...you didn't.
I was just trying to make a point about complaining...no biggie.
It's just that we all have things we'd like to see, and they are, or aren't coming...we all have a decision to make about software; whether it will do what we want...
I wasn't necessarily you; but we are all adults...we realize that things aren't perfect yet...but there are ways to phrase things that are constructive, and ways to do the opposite...
Let's get past that...I apologize...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Edward hyndman said:
Robert, breathe in .... out .... in.....out
your second option, copy paste to onenote. I have one note. Explain for me how you paste something like a set of clippings you have put together into Onenote. If I can do this I am set.
Thanks
EddieEddie,
I wasn't specifically talking about clippings because in my mind they ARE a OneNote clone...not quite finished; so to me..it makes little sense to copy from clippings to one note...I'd just go right to OneNote...but since you asked...
Take any clipping....use the Windows + S key combo and do a screen clipping of your clipping in Logos...then you can organize your clips...you can turn them into editable text.. print them....whatever...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert,
I have onenote. But it doesn't appear the same as yours. What's that funny red thing in the top right corner?
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