I would like to see commentaries written by Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza

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tom | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Jul 18 2009 5:18 AM

Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza wrote a couple commentaries, and I would like to have her commentaries avaliable in the Logos format.

Posts 59
Westie | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 11:04 PM

I respectfully disagree.  Since this is not the forum for theological debate, I will resist the temptation for in depth disputation.  Readers can research her beliefs and come to their own conclusions.

God Bless

Mark

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 11:25 PM

Mark:
I respectfully disagree.  Since this is not the forum for theological debate, I will resist the temptation for in depth disputation.  Readers can research her beliefs and come to their own conclusions.

Proposed translation:  Only read those things you agree with.  I would disrespectfully disagree with you.  Not that I have anything against you, but I don't respect that view.  You should especially read those with whom you disagree. 

Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 5:22 AM

Interesting to read but I doubt I would pay money to read it. Since there are already too many titles I would love to read again and again, I would probably consult this one at the library and only when I am curious how the feminists come up with their views.

I am already happily married to a truly feminine and godly woman. I would rather incline mine ear toward her.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 5:41 AM

Matthew C Jones:

Interesting to read but I doubt I would pay money to read it. Since there are already too many titles I would love to read again ad again, I would probably consult this one at the library and only when I am curious how the feminists come up with their views.

I am already happily married to a truly feminine and godly woman. I would rather incline mine ear toward her.

Well said Matthew. I will also strongly but respectfully disagree on Fiorenza making it into Logos, i agree with Mark.

Matthew C Jones:

I am already happily married to a truly feminine and godly woman. I would rather incline mine ear toward her.

Sir T.

 

 

 

 

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 8:05 AM

George Somsel:

Mark:
I respectfully disagree.  Since this is not the forum for theological debate, I will resist the temptation for in depth disputation.  Readers can research her beliefs and come to their own conclusions.

Proposed translation:  Only read those things you agree with.  I would disrespectfully disagree with you.  Not that I have anything against you, but I don't respect that view.  You should especially read those with whom you disagree. 

Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.

Hi George,

I wish you would take your own advise & give the ............. point of view some serious thoughtBig Smile

Sir T.

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 8:41 AM
it would certainly be valuable to anyone doing study in this area of Feminist theology since she appears to be a strong voice (interesting, her next book is being published by Wesminster John Knox Press). It would be an authoritative work to consult when writing/speaking on various topics, but I don't know I would spend a lot on it.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 8:46 AM

Ted Hans:
I wish you would take your own advise & give the ............. point of view some serious thoughtBig Smile

Would you care to fill in the blank?  What would that be?  The feminist viewpoint?  The Muslim viewpoint?  The Dumb Old Rat viewpoint?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 830
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 8:46 AM

Personally, I would rather that Bob P. using Adam Smith's "invisible hand" determine what gets published on Logos.

I can then filter what does or does not load onto my computer.

JRS has left the building.

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 9:01 AM
FYI, I did a search of my Logos library and got 37 hits for her name. There are several book reviews and other mentions, but nothing written by her. Here is the paragrah that mentions her from "The Dictionary of Christianity in America"

"A number of women have taken prominent theological roles both within the churches and the academe. Feminist theology—critical theological reflection carried out from a distinctly feminine perspective—has become a recognized theological movement among both Protestant and Roman Catholic theologians. Rosemary Radford Ruether and Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza have achieved prominence within this diverse movement that in some expressions has become confessedly non-Christian."

Also, here is a paragraph from a review "Faith and Mision" vol 2, of Fiorenza's book "In Memory of Her" in which Fiorenza attempts to reconstruct the leadership roles of women in the early church that were suppressed by the male dominated culture.

"In moving to the pre-Pauline missionary movement, Fiorenza argues women’s apostolic and ministerial leadership. She locates Paul within an ongoing and diversified Christian mission built out of house churches supported, organized, and led by women. Using “evidence from Pauline and post-Pauline literature, as well as Mark and John, Fiorenza demonstrates that Galatians 3:28, rather than being original with Paul, is the moment when he most accurately reflects the actual praxis of the early churches. She shows that the biblical witness to women’s involvement as deacons, apostles, and missionaries is steadily down-played by the efforts of the canonical writers to make the texts palatable to the dominant, non-Christian ethos. For example, diakonos becomes deaconess in reference to women and Acts emphasizes women as wealthy patrons while neglecting them as missionaries. Chapter Seven follows the trajectory of Christian patriarchy which begins with Paul’s modifications of the Galatians passage. The results, Fiorenza argues, are closer to Jewish religious and biological distinctions, the Greco-Roman ethos, and the pagan household than the radical discipleship of Jesus. Concern for decorum and good citizenship categorically revised the politically intrusive movement which led to the cross."

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Posts 129
John McComb | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 9:25 AM

Joe Miller:
FYI, I did a search of my Logos library and got 37 hits for her name. There are several book reviews and other mentions, but nothing written by her. Here is the paragrah that mentions her from "The Dictionary of Christianity in America"

"A number of women have taken prominent theological roles both within the churches and the academe. Feminist theology—critical theological reflection carried out from a distinctly feminine perspective—has become a recognized theological movement among both Protestant and Roman Catholic theologians. Rosemary Radford Ruether and Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza have achieved prominence within this diverse movement that in some expressions has become confessedly non-Christian."

Also, here is a paragraph from a review "Faith and Mision" vol 2, of Fiorenza's book "In Memory of Her" in which Fiorenza attempts to reconstruct the leadership roles of women in the early church that were suppressed by the male dominated culture.

"In moving to the pre-Pauline missionary movement, Fiorenza argues women’s apostolic and ministerial leadership. She locates Paul within an ongoing and diversified Christian mission built out of house churches supported, organized, and led by women. Using “evidence from Pauline and post-Pauline literature, as well as Mark and John, Fiorenza demonstrates that Galatians 3:28, rather than being original with Paul, is the moment when he most accurately reflects the actual praxis of the early churches. She shows that the biblical witness to women’s involvement as deacons, apostles, and missionaries is steadily down-played by the efforts of the canonical writers to make the texts palatable to the dominant, non-Christian ethos. For example, diakonos becomes deaconess in reference to women and Acts emphasizes women as wealthy patrons while neglecting them as missionaries. Chapter Seven follows the trajectory of Christian patriarchy which begins with Paul’s modifications of the Galatians passage. The results, Fiorenza argues, are closer to Jewish religious and biological distinctions, the Greco-Roman ethos, and the pagan household than the radical discipleship of Jesus. Concern for decorum and good citizenship categorically revised the politically intrusive movement which led to the cross."

Yucch!!!!

Yours in Christ

John

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 9:44 AM

JRS:

Personally, I would rather that Bob P. using Adam Smith's "invisible hand" determine what gets published on Logos.

I can then filter what does or does not load onto my computer.

And all the people said, "Amen!"

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 9:49 AM

John McComb:

Yucch!!!!

Yours in Christ

Does your wife know you feel this way about women?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 12:01 PM

George Somsel:

Ted Hans:
I wish you would take your own advise & give the ............. point of view some serious thoughtBig Smile

Would you care to fill in the blank?  What would that be?  The feminist viewpoint?  The Muslim viewpoint?  The Dumb Old Rat viewpoint?

George, you know what i mean the Evangelical perspective. The view that holds that the bible is the inerrant & infallible Word of God, which is without error in all that it teaches on Geography ,history,culture, custom, theology etc.

Do try and be gracious in your response.Wink

Sir T.

 

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 12:55 PM

Joe Miller:
FYI, I did a search of my Logos library and got 37 hits for her name. There are several book reviews and other mentions, but nothing written by her. Here is the paragrah that mentions her from "The Dictionary of Christianity in America"

"A number of women have taken prominent theological roles both within the churches and the academe. Feminist theology—critical theological reflection carried out from a distinctly feminine perspective—has become a recognized theological movement among both Protestant and Roman Catholic theologians. Rosemary Radford Ruether and Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza have achieved prominence within this diverse movement that in some expressions has become confessedly non-Christian."

Also, here is a paragraph from a review "Faith and Mision" vol 2, of Fiorenza's book "In Memory of Her" in which Fiorenza attempts to reconstruct the leadership roles of women in the early church that were suppressed by the male dominated culture.

"In moving to the pre-Pauline missionary movement, Fiorenza argues women’s apostolic and ministerial leadership. She locates Paul within an ongoing and diversified Christian mission built out of house churches supported, organized, and led by women. Using “evidence from Pauline and post-Pauline literature, as well as Mark and John, Fiorenza demonstrates that Galatians 3:28, rather than being original with Paul, is the moment when he most accurately reflects the actual praxis of the early churches. She shows that the biblical witness to women’s involvement as deacons, apostles, and missionaries is steadily down-played by the efforts of the canonical writers to make the texts palatable to the dominant, non-Christian ethos. For example, diakonos becomes deaconess in reference to women and Acts emphasizes women as wealthy patrons while neglecting them as missionaries. Chapter Seven follows the trajectory of Christian patriarchy which begins with Paul’s modifications of the Galatians passage. The results, Fiorenza argues, are closer to Jewish religious and biological distinctions, the Greco-Roman ethos, and the pagan household than the radical discipleship of Jesus. Concern for decorum and good citizenship categorically revised the politically intrusive movement which led to the cross."

Thanks Joe for the search in your Logos Library nothing further needs to be said about Fiorenza.

I have been spending a lot of my time reading interesting stuff on your website & your interview with the author of the Shack was an eye opener. He was very orthodox in his interview with you but i am not sure how he could have gone wrong in his Novel. Of course not all he said was wrong in his Novel but some things were troubling.

Kind Regards,

Ted.

 

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Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 1:01 PM

You are welcome for the post and thanks for the kudos.  Glad you dug the interview with Paul Young.

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Posts 129
John McComb | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 1:21 PM

George Somsel:

John McComb:

Yucch!!!!

Yours in Christ

Does your wife know you feel this way about women?

I don't have a wife and don't be obtuse. You know perfectly well that the remark has nothing to do with feelings about women.

Yours in Christ

John

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 1:35 PM

John McComb:
You know perfectly well that the remark has nothing to do with feelings about women.

What then?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 1:39 PM

John McComb:
I don't have a wife

I must be confusing you with Smiley.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 129
John McComb | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 2:53 PM

George Somsel:

John McComb:
You know perfectly well that the remark has nothing to do with feelings about women.

What then?

Do you really want to get into this?

It's about modern day, self exalting political agendas trying to infect Christian doctrine by projecting conspiracy theories on ancient peoples. In fact, if the message that has been passed down to us was tainted from  the beginning by egocentric prejudices then the whole thing is a sham. You can't root through it and make corrections, I don't care how keen and/or knowledgable you are.  If any part of it is insincere then there is no way that you can trust any of it to be sincere because there is no possibility of a tool or algorithm to measure that sincerity.

If you are someone who is only interested in worldly exaltation then none of that matters. A weak philosophy is just as capable of supporting a shallow world of robes, grand cathedrals and gold chalices as a real church. The real church, on the other hand, is really only supported by the word of God and the faith of its members. If that word can't be trusted then there is no real church. Only a bunch of hoodwinked fools.

Well, I happen to know that the word of God is true, sincere and authoritative. It can't be knocked down by Jesus Seminars, liberation groups or any other power seeking schemes that seek to highjack it to their own ends. However, whenever I see attempts to do so it always makes me go "Yucch". That's because even though the word of God is crystal clear, the murkiness of the world around us and our own weaknesses that prevent us from seeking to live above the chaos  causes our vision to be less than clear.

As far as I'm concerned women and men are pretty much the same. Flawed humans who can choose to seek humble servitude in Christ's Kingdom or sell their souls to the pursuit of worldly rewards. I just think that if you choose the later (which is, of course, your right) and you think you need a religion to decorate your facade then you should pick one of the pagan varieties. They have a lot more colorful fluff to offer and they don't require tons and tons of backpedalling and equivocation of doctrine along the way. Besides, I have a feeling that it's a lot safer to devote oneself to paganism than it is to pretend Christianity and try and doctor scripture to ones own selfish ends.

Yours in Christ

John

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