I would like to see commentaries written by Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza

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Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 3:08 PM

John McComb:
It's about modern day, self exalting political agendas trying to infect Christian doctrine by projecting conspiracy theories on ancient peoples.

I assume that since you say "It's all about ..." that the rest of this somehow is related to this.  I fail to see, however, what this has to do with whether the works of ESF should appear in Logos.  Perhaps you can enlighten me.  Are we about to institute a McComb Index of Prohibited Books?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 150
Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 3:25 PM

Gettin' pretty heated, guys.

George, if I've been following this correctly, I think you asked John what in fact his "yuchh" was there, for.

I think he has explained it.

Wouldn't it be best to just leave it there?

=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ...
Jim Dean

Posts 129
John McComb | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 3:39 PM

George Somsel:

John McComb:
It's about modern day, self exalting political agendas trying to infect Christian doctrine by projecting conspiracy theories on ancient peoples.

I assume that since you say "It's all about ..." that the rest of this somehow is related to this.  I fail to see, however, what this has to do with whether the works of ESF should appear in Logos.  Perhaps you can enlighten me.  Are we about to institute a McComb Index of Prohibited Books?

What on earth are you talking about? Joe Miller posted a couple of excerpts that explained a bit about the theology of this Fiorenza woman and I responded "Yucch". The only place where the word "yucch" implies any opinion at all about what Logos should or shouldn't publish is in your rather (uhhhh, let's call it 'interesting') imagination.

Logos can publish whatever they want as far as I'm concerned. Moreover, you can buy it and read it 20 times over if that's what you want to do. You won't hear any complaints from me.

Yours in Christ

John

Posts 10714
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 3:52 PM

John McComb:

It's about modern day, self exalting political agendas trying to infect Christian doctrine by projecting conspiracy theories on ancient peoples. In fact, if the message that has been passed down to us was tainted from  the beginning by egocentric prejudices then the whole thing is a sham. You can't root through it and make corrections, I don't care how keen and/or knowledgable you are.  If any part of it is insincere then there is no way that you can trust any of it to be sincere because there is no possibility of a tool or algorithm to measure that sincerity.

If you are someone who is only interested in worldly exaltation then none of that matters. A weak philosophy is just as capable of supporting a shallow world of robes, grand cathedrals and gold chalices as a real church. The real church, on the other hand, is really only supported by the word of God and the faith of its members. If that word can't be trusted then there is no real church. Only a bunch of hoodwinked fools.

Well, I happen to know that the word of God is true, sincere and authoritative. It can't be knocked down by Jesus Seminars, liberation groups or any other power seeking schemes that seek to highjack it to their own ends. However, whenever I see attempts to do so it always makes me go "Yucch". That's because even though the word of God is crystal clear, the murkiness of the world around us and our own weaknesses that prevent us from seeking to live above the chaos  causes our vision to be less than clear.

As far as I'm concerned women and men are pretty much the same. Flawed humans who can choose to seek humble servitude in Christ's Kingdom or sell their souls to the pursuit of worldly rewards. I just think that if you choose the later (which is, of course, your right) and you think you need a religion to decorate your facade then you should pick one of the pagan varieties. They have a lot more colorful fluff to offer and they don't require tons and tons of backpedalling and equivocation of doctrine along the way. Besides, I have a feeling that it's a lot safer to devote oneself to paganism than it is to pretend Christianity and try and doctor scripture to ones own selfish ends.

Yours in Christ

John

 

Very good summary Yes

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2009 3:58 PM

JimDean:

I think he has explained it.

Wouldn't it be best to just leave it there?

JimDean:

I think he has explained it.

I don't really think he explained anything.  What he did was to give me a bunch of double-talk which seems to have no bearing on the issue.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 12:46 PM

Wow, I did not mean to stir up a bee's nest here.

As Joe Miller quoted from The Dictionary of Christianity in America

Joe Miller:
""A number of women have taken prominent theological roles both within the churches and the academe. Feminist theology-critical theological reflection carried out from a distinctly feminine perspective-has become a recognized theological movement among both Protestant and Roman Catholic theologians. Rosemary Radford Ruether and Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza have achieved prominence within this diverse movement that in some expressions has become confessedly non-Christian."

Note: This quote states "some expressions" believe that "this diverse movement" falls out of the Christian teachings. 

While I do not want to get into a debate of what is a "Christian teaching" and what is not (this debate will fall into what denomination has the 'correct' teachings), it is safe to say that some expressions of Christianity will say that "this diverse movement" does conform to Christian doctrine.

Because some people do believe that feminist theology - liberation does conform to Christian doctrine, I believe that this is one reason why we should read and have her items available in Logos.

I have read some of Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza's writings, and I have found out that I agree with some of the points she makes and I disagree with other points she makes (just like I agree with and disagree with other authors).  I do know one thing, I learn from reading her books.

I could not agree more with George when he said,

George Somsel:
You should especially read those with whom you disagree.

Not only do we learn why someone believes the way they do, it helps us in our own understanding.  I also believe that it is by reading and listening to people who we disagree with that we can the errors in our logic / theology.

This why I would love to have commentaries written by Fiorenza and others who hold to feminist theology, liberation theology, . . .

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 2:18 PM

tom collinge:

I could not agree more with George when he said,

George Somsel:
You should especially read those with whom you disagree.

Not only do we learn why someone believes the way they do, it helps us in our own understanding.  I also believe that it is by reading and listening to people who we disagree with that we can the errors in our logic / theology.

This why I would love to have commentaries written by Fiorenza and others who hold to feminist theology, liberation theology, . . .

I agree also with George it is good to read something we don't agree with, but IMHO it make sense in the situation when I see I can be enriched by the opposite opinion. I have an opinion, but who knows, may be they will say something what can adjust my point of view. I want to learn, to grow etc.

I am sorry to say however, that it does not apply IMHO to the certain ideologies I know they are just wrong and I don't want to learn from them anything. Communism is an example, not to speak too close to the subject. I would rather put my money into some resources I can benefit from because there is a chance they might be right and I can be wrong. That is just my little 2 cents.

Bohuslav

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 8:47 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
I am sorry to say however, that it does not apply IMHO to the certain ideologies I know they are just wrong and I don't want to learn from them anything.

hmmm, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.  I believe that there are only a few "things" in this world that are completly just completely wrong.  Even with these "things" that are completely wrong, we can still learn from them.  Therefore, I do believe that we need to read/listen/understand the items that we do not agree with or believe to be wrong.

Bohuslav Wojnar:
I would rather put my money into some resources I can benefit from because there is a chance they might be right and I can be wrong.

If you do not want material from Fiorenza, then you do not have to purchase the material.

I do want to learn from people who have a different point of view.  Thus, I want to have recourses by people like Fiorenza.

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2009 9:47 PM

tom collinge:

Bohuslav Wojnar:
I am sorry to say however, that it does not apply IMHO to the certain ideologies I know they are just wrong and I don't want to learn from them anything.

hmmm, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.  I believe that there are only a few "things" in this world that are completly just completely wrong.  Even with these "things" that are completely wrong, we can still learn from them.  Therefore, I do believe that we need to read/listen/understand the items that we do not agree with or believe to be wrong.

Bohuslav Wojnar:
I would rather put my money into some resources I can benefit from because there is a chance they might be right and I can be wrong.

If you do not want material from Fiorenza, then you do not have to purchase the material.

I do want to learn from people who have a different point of view.  Thus, I want to have recourses by people like Fiorenza.

To put it simply, what I read has boundaries. Since my time is limited and my finances are limited, I have to use both wisely. I read the things obviously wrong only if I have to do a research concerning the given subject. May be if I have as much time as Methuselah had, I would be free to read just anything. I read all the time, but it just takes time... There is also another aspect to it. IMHO what I read I know it influences me. I want to be wise what I allow to influence me. I know there are people who think they can absorb any idea and stay untouched by that. I am not that naive.

I respect however your opinion and understand it very well.  Have a great day.

 

Bohuslav

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 22 2009 9:32 AM

I understand were George in his view and others in their view are coming from.

I guess when the original poster said he wanted these I took that to mean that he saw "Orthodox Christian" beliefs being put forth in them and that's why he wanted them. Maybe a wrong assumption on my part.

I have no problem with having the "other" kind of resources available in Logos because I agree with George, it's a must that you are at least "familiar" with the opposite point of view.

Personally, I'd LOVE to have a Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and a Pearl of Great Price and a copy of the Watchtower Interlinear Bible available...that would be great...but the difference between LDS or JW materials and these commentaries is that we all understand that the LDS and JW materials are not Christian materials, whereas some other things like the New Perspective stuff or these kings of things might not be as easy to spot.

Edited to add: And I'd hate to spend a ton of cash on a commentary or something only to find out once I got into it that it's unorthodox...

 

All in all It's a thorny issue.

 

PS: note to George: I also understand  why people don't want to read commentaries that are antithetical to a certain viewpoint. It's not being close minded, it's being true to what you believe to be the truth about a particular issue.

Example: personally I'm familiar with the Calvinist/Arminian view point on things and it drives me up a wall while reading through an Arminian commentary to have to wade through the same old tired points that have been soundly refuted for 300 years before I was born.

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 2778
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 22 2009 12:55 PM

There are several reasons why these feminist resources should be published in Logos format.

- Fiorenza is a recognized voice and leader in this area of feminist/liberation theology.  She is regularly quoted in magazines and resources in Logos such as the Magazine by the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.  It would be good to see the full context for the passages in which Fiorenza is quoted by her detractors.

- For anyone attending a seminary or doing PhD work as a rebuttal against feminist theology, this resource would provide an invaluabel research tool in the Logos library format.

- For anyone who supports Fiorenza, the Logos format would be a huge conveniance.

- Jimmy Carter recently came out and denounced his lifelong association with the Southern Baptist Convention.  His rationale is steeped in the feminist ideology of Fiorenza.  Hiding from the influence of this theology is not helpful and addressing the issues brought up by Carter.  

-This resource could be a help to any pastor who in engaged in meaningful discussions with their congregation about the influence of feminist theology.  Having primary source knowledge of the issues being discussed by our younger generations, is very valuable.

- Finally, Logos is supposed to be a LIBRARY system on our computers.  Libraries contain a breadth of knowledge on many subjects.  Libraries do not endorse content, they simply contain it.  The idea that somehow because a book is published for use in a Library is going to mislead people seems rather arcane.  

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 22 2009 1:23 PM

Robert Pavich:
I guess when the original poster said he wanted these I took that to mean that he saw "Orthodox Christian" beliefs being put forth in them and that's why he wanted them. Maybe a wrong assumption on my part.

Hello Robert,

Just to let you know, I am the original poster, and the reason that I would love to have feminist/liberation resources is because they do not fall into what some people would say orthodox Christianity.

FYI... I believe what St. Augustine wrote about and said during the 5th century was a good explanation for the 5th century church, but we do not live in the 5th century.  What St. Augustine said and wrote is not part of our cannon. Therefore, the teachings of St. Augustine should be treated as 5th century teachings, and not as the 67th book of the Bible.  Therefore, I am not afraid to take a position that some people will call unorthodox.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 22 2009 2:40 PM

Tom,

No problem but I'm at a loss as to why we'd be talking about Augustine??

Not everything written about Christianity is Orthodox..I agree...and the church fathers are no exception.

BUT...

 

If we are having a hard time defining what orthodoxy is then we are in a heap o trouble! :)

 

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 22 2009 2:42 PM

Quoting Joe Miller:

- Finally, Logos is supposed to be a LIBRARY system on our computers.  Libraries contain a breadth of knowledge on many subjects.  Libraries do not endorse content, they simply contain it.  The idea that somehow because a book is published for use in a Library is going to mislead people seems rather arcane. 

 

Fully agreed...I stand corrected if I differed on this.

 

But my comment  about this particular resource would still echo John's Sad

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 22 2009 4:23 PM

Robert Pavich:
If we are having a hard time defining what orthodoxy is then we are in a heap o trouble! :)

There is no trouble defining orthodoxy. 

Everyone

knows that it is

what I believe.

Big Smile

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 22 2009 5:32 PM

tom collinge:
What St. Augustine said and wrote is not part of our cannon. Therefore, the teachings of St. Augustine should be treated as 5th century teachings, and not as the 67th book of the Bible.  Therefore, I am not afraid to take a position that some people will call unorthodox.

St. Augustine did not take the Apostle Paul to task claiming God had said one thing to Paul but Paul didn't like it so Paul changed it to suit his personal bias against females. If you believe the Canon of scripture is more important than what Augustine wrote then you should take issue with the non-canonical writings of Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza that claim the Apostles corrupted God's true message.

I still have no objection to her writings being made available in Logos. I do however question the whole foundation of her belief system. If you are going to cast aspersions on the canon, why not question the parts that teach love for ladies?

 

 

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 22 2009 11:57 PM

George Somsel:

Robert Pavich:
If we are having a hard time defining what orthodoxy is then we are in a heap o trouble! :)

There is no trouble defining orthodoxy. 

Everyone

knows that it is

what I believe.

Big Smile

Ha, than I am afraid, I am not orthodox, according to this criteria. Sad  ...but here I stand... Cool

 

Bohuslav

Posts 502
Randall Hartman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 23 2009 3:25 AM

George, what a mess you have created in this thread with your alarming honesty and sharp insight.  Sigh...you are my hero!

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 23 2009 8:01 AM

Randy Hartman:

George, what a mess you have created in this thread with your alarming honesty and sharp insight.  Sigh...you are my hero!

 

George is your hero?    Tongue Tied     Now, I am afraid!

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Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 23 2009 8:27 AM

Matthew C Jones:

Randy Hartman:

George, what a mess you have created in this thread with your alarming honesty and sharp insight.  Sigh...you are my hero!

 

 

 

George is your hero?    Tongue Tied     Now, I am afraid!

 

Yes, be

very

afraid!

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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