Here we go again...part 2...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268672#Comment_268672

David,

I agree with the sentiments you have expressed in your post. The Pre-Pub page is not making sense to me any more if within three weeks one has to drop such large amounts. I just hope that the good folk at Logos have thought through this long and hard, & believe that it makes good business sense to publish at such a high rate.

Ted

Milford Charles Murray

Peace to my Logos Forums Brothers and Sisters,

I also will be having to cancel a number of items I've wanted just because they are coming too fast.

Hopefully I will be able to pick up some of these on sale sometime down the road!? *smile*

Pam Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268678#Comment_268678

I check my order page regularly, and it does seem like a bunch of pre-pubs went directly from "gathering interest" to shipping within the next 30 days. I ended up cancelling ACNT and DSB but keeping IVP and Eerdmans based on the discount being greater on those. Plus I do have so many commentaries already, and Carson's comments on ACNT plus the reviews I could find in my journals didn't indicate anything special in them. I'm finding I'm able to spend more time reading my non-commentary books since I can now read them on my droid. [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268672#Comment_268672

I just hope that the good folk at Logos have thought through this long and hard, & believe that it makes good business sense to publish at such a high rate.

I did get in a crunch this month and had to drop one planned purchase. But it seems to me that Logos has a number of areas in which they would broaden their appeal rather than place an "undue" load on current buyers. While I see problems as people adjust their expectations for when pre-publications will "go live", once our expectations are reset it seems to me that Logos is no different than Amazon - it offers lots of things I'd like to have, fewer that I'd really want, still fewer that I truly need. Sad but true, there are many great resources that I would have time to read or use even if I did own them ... just like on my bookshelves.[:'(]

I'm not ignorant of the vagaries of the free market. I understand the concept of "variety" as well. But those "principles" are so much smoke from my perspective--which is trying to take in more than just my perspective. Yes, most people are "base package campers", and happy are they. Fine. But that means that a signficantly small percentage of Logos customers are continuing purchasers. Most forum regulars will probably fall in that category. But come on, let's be honest. You missed the PrePub package that was $199, because the was another $199 package you bought and couldn't afford both. Are you going to get the package you missed at the "regular sale" price of $449? If so, more power to you. I'm not. Never going to happen.

But let's understand the dynamic. Platitudes about free markets and blah blah blah don't matter. Other cold hard facts do. I'm not the ONLY soul who is having to say "No Way" to these tidal waves of PrePub's. Many others are finding themselves in the same rubber dingy I'm in. And the only thing they can do is bale...as in "bale out". If significant numbers of people who WANTED to buy the latest PrePub are having to pull out, then the rationale for the PrePub suddenly has a big, fat hole in it and it starts to take on water. If you are one of those who said "NO" to buying the package at twice or more of the PrePub price, then who is going to buy that package? I'm not privy to Logos's sales figures, so all I can do is surmise. But if you're cranking out PrePub's, whose existence is predicated on the fact that you are covering your bottom line before going into production, but you are at the same time producing scads more product than your MOST ARDENT CUSTOMERS can possibly keep up with or afford, it seems like there is a crack in the pipes somewhere that is going to give way at some point.

Or, maybe I'm totally wrong. Could be. People keep telling me it's going to happen one of these days. [A] But if the (as we've already established) FEW customers you have who are avid REPEAT customers can't keep up with the new product purchasing schedule, it seems that you are sandbagging your own cisterns. You can toss free market blather at that all day long, but it still doesn't make any sense to me.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268708#Comment_268708

David Paul, I'm not sure what post you are responding to. But speaking for myself, I purchase what I need - with a few treats of what I want for fun. If I know I'm going to need it when it is on pre-pub, I'll buy it then. Otherwise I buy it when I need it ... or if it is only available in a large collection I head for my nearest library. If the item I had to cancel were something I had purchased as a treat, then Logos has likely lost a sale. If it is something I need, Logos is getting a deferred but higher price. I will also grant you that when people post he number of volumes or the value of their purchases, my collection appears puny.

My major crises comes when I have to choose between something that is available now vs. a better choice available at an unknown date in the future. Can I trust that the resource will arrive before my "drop dead" date?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268708#Comment_268708

In some way, what I'm getting at reminds me of gold eggs and geese.

See, in a fairly unique way, Logos and Logos's minority "repeat purchase" community are a symbiant community. If one part of this community gets "out of whack", then serious imbalances can wreck the harmony that has long existed. I don't have a problem with Logos wanting to broaden its horizons, and open up new revenue streams. But these new streams ought not upset the balance that exists within the symbiotic relationship. Frankly, I don't see why they would, although I do see how they can and could, if care isn't taken.

If I have a gold-laying goose, I can afford to spend an egg's worth of gold each day. If I try to spend more, I get myself into a bind. I start trying to come up with ideas for squeezing MORE out of the goose. Predictably, I can squeeze the life out of the predictable and dependable goose. The problem isn't with the goose, it's with my expectations and irresponsibility. If I MUST spend more, I can good and well get a job to supplement my daily egg. But I shouldn't take out my dilemma on the goose. I CAN, of course, but I shouldn't...because, to be frank, it's stupid.

Logos can suppose that cranking out tons upon tons of new stuff is good for business. Maybe it is. But only if they are "getting a new job" so to speak. New customers that come via Verso (or whatever it's called) is fine. But the long-time core repeat customers can only produce a certain amount of gold each day/month/year. If the firehose of offerings is the best I can expect from them, I can find still waters elsewhere. I am happy to spend money with Logos. But if the experience becomes mostly disappointment, I can remind myself that geese have wings.

As Obi-Wan said, "You and the Naboo form a symbiant community. What happens to one of you will affect the other. Surely you must see this." What I'm saying is that the absurd production rate that Logos is attempting to achieve seems a whole lot like cancer to me...production run amok. Some may call it progress. That's precisely what they call social cancer...progress.

Growth isn't always a good thing...as when your physician says, "You have a growth." [:O]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268712#Comment_268712

I don't have a problem with Logos wanting to broaden its horizons, and open up new revenue streams. But these new streams ought not upset the balance that exists within the symbiotic relationship. Frankly, I don't see why they would, although I do see how they can and could, if care isn't taken.

The wider the scope of publishing activity, the slower your particular interests should move. Unless you are like me; interested in too many things.

Logos can suppose that cranking out tons upon tons of new stuff is good for business. Maybe it is. But only if they are "getting a new job" so to speak. New customers that come via Verso (or whatever it's called) is fine. But the long-time core repeat customers can only produce a certain amount of gold each day/month/year

I addressed this back in 2009. I will just show a snapshot of the relevant content to avoid re-hashing unrelated topics:

There indeed is a limited amount of disposable income each customer has. The imbalance of the Pre-Pub releases, both price-wise and doctrinally creates this "drinking from a fire hose" problem. The "snapshot" solution last October was a stop-gap measure that works for most buyers. But the few of us that want almost everything will not see much relief from that. I will either have to increase my disposable income or live without having it all. But if I can not have everything, it won't make me discard what I can have.

Edwin Bowden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268712#Comment_268712

Logos can suppose that cranking out tons upon tons of new stuff is good for business.

I think most Logos users are happy to see "tons of new stuff" available for purchase.

I remember when Logos users were constantly asking when Logos was going to get the rights to highly sought after resources like NICOT/NICNT, Zondervan titles, newer Baker titles, etc.

Logos is providing what we as customers have asked for. Sometimes (often!) we ask for more than we can afford. That is not Logos's fault.

The method that Logos uses in producing titles after enough orders are placed, assures them that there is sufficient market to justify the production. Some titles reach that status quickly and others take what seems like forever. We as the customers are more in charge than we often realize.

Unlike a regular bookstore, Logos normally rewards us with pre-pub special pricing to encourage us to buy the titles as soon as they are produced. This is a very good business decision, to quickly recover development costs. If we are unable to take advantage of that pricing opportunity, Logos frequently offers a large variety of titles at substantial sale prices.

Like all of life, we each have to learn to prioritize. (The government is finally realizing that right now.) I buy what I can afford now and put other titles of interest on my wish list. I watch for them to be on sale at the same time that I have some money to spend.

I wish that Logos had available every title that is available in any Christian bookstore.

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268717#Comment_268717

I understand the difficulty of paying for so many prepubs at once. I had to decline on both the Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library and the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud. As much as I wanted them, I could not justify spending $700. They have been put on my wish list with hopes that a really good sale will come my way along with the finances.

I am also genuinely happy for those who can afford the resources they want. God has already blessed me with a large library - I guess I need to learn to be like Paul - content with what I have.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268708#Comment_268708

I'm not ignorant of the vagaries of the free market. I understand the concept of "variety" as well. But those "principles" are so much smoke from my perspective--which is trying to take in more than just my perspective. Yes, most people are "base package campers", and happy are they. Fine. But that means that a signficantly small percentage of Logos customers are continuing purchasers. Most forum regulars will probably fall in that category. But come on, let's be honest. You missed the PrePub package that was $199, because the was another $199 package you bought and couldn't afford both. Are you going to get the package you missed at the "regular sale" price of $449? If so, more power to you. I'm not. Never going to happen.

But let's understand the dynamic. Platitudes about free markets and blah blah blah don't matter. Other cold hard facts do. I'm not the ONLY soul who is having to say "No Way" to these tidal waves of PrePub's. Many others are finding themselves in the same rubber dingy I'm in. And the only thing they can do is bale...as in "bale out". If significant numbers of people who WANTED to buy the latest PrePub are having to pull out, then the rationale for the PrePub suddenly has a big, fat hole in it and it starts to take on water. If you are one of those who said "NO" to buying the package at twice or more of the PrePub price, then who is going to buy that package? I'm not privy to Logos's sales figures, so all I can do is surmise. But if you're cranking out PrePub's, whose existence is predicated on the fact that you are covering your bottom line before going into production, but you are at the same time producing scads more product than your MOST ARDENT CUSTOMERS can possibly keep up with or afford, it seems like there is a crack in the pipes somewhere that is going to give way at some point.

Or, maybe I'm totally wrong. Could be. People keep telling me it's going to happen one of these days. But if the (as we've already established) FEW customers you have who are avid REPEAT customers can't keep up with the new product purchasing schedule, it seems that you are sandbagging your own cisterns. You can toss free market blather at that all day long, but it still doesn't make any sense to me.

Your post is just a RANT!

I for one am deeply appreciative of all Pre-Pub special offers Logos is willing to offer. BRING ON TONS OF BOOKS AS FAST AS YOU CAN!

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268753#Comment_268753

I am very glad that Logos is publishing books faster than I can afford to purchase them...this lets me purchase the best. Some I have to pass on; I wouldn't have had those anyway. Keep em coming Logos

Bill Coley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268708#Comment_268708

Platitudes about free markets and blah blah blah don't matter.

You can toss free market blather at that all
day long, but it still doesn't make any sense to me.

David,

Since I am a poster who offered "platitudes" and "blah blah blah" and "blather" about free markets, I suppose I have standing to reply.

If Logos' pre-pub strategy doesn't work, if in the face of onslaughts of new offerings would-be customers refrain from both the initial bargains and their subsequent price increases, then Logos will suffer financial consequences. If Logos has competent management, it will identify those consequences as products of their pre-pub strategy, which they will then amend! And why will Logos amend its pre-pub strategy in the face of that strategy's failure? Because of something called the free "blah blah blah" market.

That Logos pursues its current approach tells us that either a) it's working; b) it's not working, but Logos does not have competent financial management; or c) Logos is in the process of evaluating the strategy. I suspect the truth is a hybrid of a healthy dose of a) and the oversight of some c).

Bill

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268707#Comment_268707

Logos is no different than Amazon - it offers lots of things I'd like to have, fewer that I'd really want, still fewer that I truly need.

Thanks Martha for your post and in context you are right. The difference though between Logos and Amazon or say WordSearch is the Pre-Pub system. I am sure If Logos were to publish every resources at retail value or the Pre-Pub price were fixed after production, for the most part I don't think we would be having this conversation.

Since I am in basic agreement with you I will leave it at that. Unfortunately from other posters, I can see this constructive thread degenerate into an argument. I fear as is my experience sometime in this forum - this will not be seen by some as a positive customer feedback to Logos, but one's post will be evaluated as either being for Logos or against Logos. I do not have the time or energy to engage in such debates. I will leave that to others.

I trust Martha you understand I am not referring to you. I am thankful for your many contribution to the forum. God bless.

Ted

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268753#Comment_268753

Your post is just a RANT!

I for one am deeply appreciative of all Pre-Pub special offers Logos is willing to offer. BRING ON TONS OF BOOKS AS FAST AS YOU CAN!

Rant? Maybe(...maybe not). "Just"? Hardly.

But let me ask you a question. How many of your "TONS OF BOOKS" PrePubs do you purchase in say, a 6-month period? Better yet, check your Orders list and count how many PrePubs you have purchased in 2011. I'd like to know.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268774#Comment_268774

If Logos were to publish every resources at retail value or the Pre-Pub price were fixed after production, for the most part I don't think we would be having this conversation.

I agree, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Baker Academic made a decision to place their new titles in Pre-Pub at the planned retail selling price. (example: Theology of the New Testament
by
Schnelle, Udo) At first there was an outcry of "Where is the incentive to pre-order?" Then we all realized we would not miss out on great deals by delaying purchase until after publication. I do not know how that is working out for Baker financially. There are a dozen of their books I want but my money is tied up on other Pre-Pubs that I know will increase in price.
There are cultural differences among us that include purchasing habits. Some people walk into a store and pay the "asking" price. Some never pay retail. Some enjoy the back & forth of negotiating. Some respond to sales. Some like clipping coupons. And most of us will find some of these forms distasteful.
I like the Pre-Pub program and I really like the Community Pricing program. (I got a CP title for $9 that now retails for $199.) But when a collection goes from $150 to $800, it disappears off my radar.
In the next four weeks I have over $1000 of Pre-Pubs shipping. That is after I had pared the list down by cancelling others I wanted. There are another $2555 in Pre-Pubs shipping this month that would be really nice to have. It is not Logos' fault I like so many different resources. I just wish we could secure those great resources at the great prices.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268869#Comment_268869

But let me ask you a question. How many of your "TONS OF BOOKS" PrePubs do you purchase in say, a 6-month period? Better yet, check your Orders list and count how many PrePubs you have purchased in 2011. I'd like to know.

I agree David. How does this help Logos if those who are not willing to part with so much of their cash are saying bring it on when they will not make many purchases. Those who want to make a purchase (part with their cash) should be given due consideration as to how realistic it is to be faced with large volumes of items all at once. Since this does not affect the 'bring it on folks' that much i fail to see much substance in their argument.

Ted

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268869#Comment_268869

Your post is just a RANT!

I for one am deeply appreciative of all Pre-Pub special offers Logos is willing to offer. BRING ON TONS OF BOOKS AS FAST AS YOU CAN!

Rant? Maybe(...maybe not). "Just"? Hardly.

But let me ask you a question. How many of your "TONS OF BOOKS" PrePubs do you purchase in say, a 6-month period? Better yet, check your Orders list and count how many PrePubs you have purchased in 2011. I'd like to know.

I am unsure how this relates to the situation. I have made significant purchases this year (2011) in Logos books... well over $10,000 closer to $20,000. If Logos is willing to offer a Pre-Pub Special, I find this gracious on their part. You are acting as if they have an obligation to make sure everyone should be able to afford the special offer, before they extended it. This makes no sense to me...[8-)]

Pat Flanakin

I guess the answer is be as good a steward with what money the Lord has provided you, buy what you can at the best deal you can get negotiating with Logos and leave the rest to Him.

I am not sure the forum is the best forum to lay this out...perhaps a discussion with a sales manager, or Mr. Pritchett himself would better serve your seeking to negotiate timing of prepub release.

Bill Coley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268876#Comment_268876

I agree David. How does this help Logos if those who are not willing to part with so much of their cash are saying bring it on when they will not make many purchases. Those who want to make a purchase (part with their cash) should be given due consideration as to how realistic it is to be faced with large volumes of items all at once. Since this does not affect the 'bring it on folks' that much i fail to see much substance in their argument.

Ted,

You and David strike me as self-interested consumers who want to pay the lowest possible price for every Logos resource you purchase. You have every right in the world to play such a role in the system, but what you don't have the right to expect is that Logos will conform its pricing mechanisms to your particular consumption patterns. No provider of goods or services does that or can do that! (And what about the Logos customer whose personal financial situation permits him or her to request a faster stream of pre-pub offers than you prefer? How can Logos satisfy that customer and you at the same time? One of you is destined to unsatisfied, leaving Logos to digest forum threads such as this one!)

Extrapolated, your argument contends that I should be able to tell Best Buy either not to sell simultaneously the 60" tv AND the refrigerator AND the laptop at sale prices that appeal to me, because I can't afford them all at once, OR, to hold those sale prices until I can complete my desired purchases (and if they do that for me, of course, they'll also have to do it for every other consumer attracted to the sale prices). That's not the way the world works.

We all want to save money. We all want the lowest possible price for the goods and services we consume. The reality is, a resource's current price IS its lowest possible price (absent negotiations with a salesperson, of course). In most cases, pre-pub sales offer lower lowest-possible prices than do post-pub prices. In my opinion, that's neither a surprise nor a bad thing.

Bill

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268884#Comment_268884

Guys I think we're missing how Logos works pre pubs! We tell Logos "yeah I'll buy that" and once the Logos Meter of Confidence that 'yeah, they'll buy that' reaches 100 they start chiseling away at the final product.

The problem comes when the "yeah I'll buy that"s can no longer purchase what they said they would which pushed the product to saleable state in the first place!

Its easy to see this contradiction.

The current blasts in which Logos pumps out new material says they really don't need the pre-pub support and thats fine by me. I guess I'm wondering why we're still doing it like this?

PS: If its only so we can have a discount I will gladly keep pretending... don't want to sound ungrateful! [;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268886#Comment_268886

The problem comes when the "yeah I'll buy that"s can no longer purchase what they said they would which pushed the product to saleable state in the first place!

Exactly. A while back there was a thread discussing the ethics of signing up for, then canceling pre-pub orders. I suspect that Logos has their own formula for what percentage of pre-pubs they anticipate actually resulting in sales. They can manipulate that figure if cancellations become a larger probem due to the speed of released.

As a personal aside, I've often been puzzled by a few friends that seem to spend more time reading commentaries about the Bible than reading the Bible itself. Occasionally a forum participant leaves me wondering if they've left any time to read the Bible text itself amid their 1000's of resources. Maybe when Logos has more of the titles that interest me, I'll understand. I must admit, though, that Logos already has many resources I'd like but can't justify financially.[:(]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268869#Comment_268869

But let me ask you a question. How many of your "TONS OF BOOKS" PrePubs do you purchase in say, a 6-month period? Better yet, check your Orders list and count how many PrePubs you have purchased in 2011. I'd like to know.

I just checked my orders for the first 6 months of 2011. I can not publish dollar figures without causing my wife (& others) negative feelings. [:#] But I can tell you I saved an average of 55% off today's current selling prices (not "retail.") I only purchased ONE product at retail price The Ultimate Archeology Collection. It was already discounted and was pulled from the catalog just after I purchased it. I am happy I did buy it. Of course a couple of those purchases were 90% off CP titles. (The Christmas special was not during that period so the approximately 95% off was not factored.)

That survey tells me a few things:

I do respond favorably to Sales, Pre-Pubs,and Community Pricing. Incidentally I bid strategically on everything in CP.
I do not buy at retail. I waited forever for a sale on Barth's Church Dogmatics. Even then it seemed expensive.
Logos will get my disposable "stream income" regardless of what resources are currently shipping If all Pre-Pubs were junk, I'd spend the money on resources that have already been published.
Logos is able to squeeze about 10% more blood out of this turnip than I thought I could afford. (That is a gross idiom in the USA [+o(])
edit: I buy too much and have no desire to stop.

Logos is not responsible for keeping my "wants" in check.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268877#Comment_268877

I am unsure how this relates to the situation. I have made significant purchases this year (2011) in Logos books... well over $10,000 closer to $20,000. If Logos is willing to offer a Pre-Pub Special, I find this gracious on their part. You are acting as if they have an obligation to make sure everyone should be able to afford the special offer, before they extended it. This makes no sense to me...

WOW...well, that is clearly on the other side of the spectrum from what I was expecting, but it actually makes sense considering your Henry Rollins "Gimme, gimme, gimme, I need some more..." stance. It also makes my case much easier to make. You and Bill, who keeps channeling Adam Smith, aren't getting the picture. This isn't about "best case scenarios" (MJD's $20K spree) nor is it about Economics 101, 102, or 2011. It's about PHYSICS. As in, if you are depending on customers to purchase your offerings, a faucet is much more customer friendly than a firehose. As Super Tramp and others have said (including myself), I've got far too many options to ever pay full price for anything. If Logos INSISTS on having a wide-stream water jet as their product release model, I am almost certain that they will find large amounts of what they produce doesn't get purchased. NO ONE'S CUP IS BIG ENOUGH TO CATCH THE FLOOD...except for MJD, apparently. It isn't physically possible, nor economically.

I'm not poo-pooing your ability to buy what you want, MJD. Bully for you and more power to you. I am saying this: if Logos tries to market to the likes of you and your bottomless pockets, which is an all too rare commodity in this economic climate, they will get themselves so over extended in unpurchased product and so deep in red ink it will make Job's depths of Sheol look like a kiddie's wading pool.

Bill..like...just so you know, you know...I..like...have a college degree and all. So...like...I know about economics and all, and...like, you know...I know about stuff like supply and demand, you know...and other kinds of...you know, economics-related stuff. You know? And that is PRECISELY MY POINT. I am expressing to Logos how their decision to vomit out dozens of titles a month is affecting my ability to pay (or not, as the case may be). I'm pointing out that only the people who having extraordinarily deep pockets are going to be able to match this absurd stream...all the while, the majority who can't afford to keep up will just be watching as items they had their hearts set on for months or YEARS end up slipping through their fingers. And sit by dejectedly while they nurse their bruised feelings. Great for customer morale, I'm sure!! [:D]

And your Best Buy analogy/argument is waaaay off the mark. If Bob wants Logos to disappear quickly, he will turn it into a Best Buy. EVERYONE wants what Best Buy sells. But most Christians don't even read the Bibles they carry to church. The numbers of those who study the Bible with helps is miniscule...in other words, A NICHE MARKET. Niche markets are symbiotic entities, they aren't like Walmart and Joe Sixpack. I hope Bob is able to open up new markets in Christian Fiction and other historically non-Logos fare. That shouldn't affect my relationship with Logos. But that's my point. Logos needs to treat its symbiant relationships well. Because people CAN GO TO WALMART, or Amazon, or Barnes and Noble, or Books-a-Million to by e-books of the latest Mac Lucado. I don't shop at those places. They don't have my niche. But other niche retailers do.

The "Logos doesn't owe you anything" argument is totally lost on me. In one sense that is true--in another sense it is bogus. Without me and others like me, they don't exist. That whole argument is a wash. Neither side can win. Sorta like tic-tac-toe. But I know one thing. The bigger things get, the bigger their BASE has to be, otherwise they get top-heavy and crash hard. Maybe Bob is the man with the Plan. Maybe he can read my mind. Maybe he can see the future. Regardless, I'm just telling him how it is affecting me. I don't need to 1) be taken to school or 2) be scolded for saying how it is affecting me...and affecting others, I suspect. Some may wish to express how this is affecting them also, and perhaps affecting them differently. They might have a different experience altogether. Fine. Dandy. But what makes anyone think their reality trumps my reality???? As a long-term, five-figure customer, I expect Bob WANTS to know how I feel about his company. I actually suspect (shh! don't tell anyone!) that is what this forum is all about. I find Logos to be rather exceptional in its responsiveness to the customer pulse. Which is exactly why I'm expressing how this new trend is affecting me. Perhaps it is affecting others differently. Okay by me. But I really don't need to be addressed like I am clueless. I am expressing a very valid point, and like others have said, this sudden glut of material kind of produces a situation that is at fundamental odds with how Bob and others expressed the PrePub plan was supposed to work at its inception. I'm expressing facts in my reality, as I see them. That's all. No amount of attempted schooling or scolding can change that.

Edwin Bowden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268923#Comment_268923

I am expressing to Logos how their decision to vomit out dozens of titles a month is affecting my ability to pay (or not, as the case may be). I'm pointing out that only the people who having extraordinarily deep pockets are going to be able to match this absurd stream...all the while, the majority who can't afford to keep up will just be watching as items they had their hearts set on for months or YEARS end up slipping through their fingers.

I am trying to understand what you are asking for.

How many new titles per month do you want Logos to produce?

Are you sure that they will be the ones that you are interested in?

How long do you want Logos to wait to produce those that you cannot afford today?

What do you say to those who want those titles sooner?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268930#Comment_268930

Come on, man. This isn't rocket science. Dropping $1000-$2000 dollars in PrePubs in 2-3 weeks is too much. You don't get that?

EDIT: It occurred to me will I was getting my shower just now...why are people talking to me?? I am addressing my comments to Logos, the people who can do something about what I am addressing. I'm giving my reasons. If someone wants to express a different perspective, do so. Make your case. I promise you, I won't write a reply grilling you on why you see things the way you do.

I'm not trying to micro-manage how Logos does business. I'm a customer writing to express how their decisions are affecting me. Quizzing me, scolding me, etc., for conveying my concern and interest in how Logos decisions affect me...is just so bizarre, and kind of inappropriate. Mind YOUR relationship with Logos, if you please. Don't mind MINE.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268884#Comment_268884

Ted,

You and David strike me as self-interested consumers who want to pay the lowest possible price for every Logos resource you purchase.

Then pray for me. I thought I was being a wise steward with the money the Lord has provided. I shall not mention the many sales opportunities I have missed b/cos I helped push a particular resource into production via the Pre-Pub system. So I don't think your comment is a fair characterization of my purchasing habits.

what you don't have the right to expect is that Logos will conform its pricing mechanisms to your particular consumption patterns.

Please can you show me where I spoke of me having a right to my request?

(And what about the Logos customer whose personal financial situation permits him or her to request a faster stream of pre-pub offers than you prefer? How can Logos satisfy that customer and you at the same time? One of you is destined to unsatisfied

Yes they can & they have.

By following a suggestion by another poster on this thread, I shall grant you your point. I am not sure why I did not think of following the suggestion in the first place - no problem with me now. Bill, what is so bad in asking for due consideration to be given to someone who wants to make a purchase at Pre-Pub price? I guess I am not sure why you view this negatively. My point is those who do not invest heavily on the Pre-Pub can purchase at the Pre-Pub price by being selective and those who do should be given due consideration. Due consideration has been given to me by Logos but you seem to be objecting that it should.

One of you is destined to unsatisfied, leaving Logos to digest forum threads such as this one!)

If it makes you happy I will try not to feedback Logos on their forum again. For the most part I have not done this but I really did not think my request would degenerate into controversy. Perhaps I was not polite enough. You can have the last word on this but I am done.

Ted

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268931#Comment_268931

EDIT: It occurred to me will I was getting my shower just now...why are people talking to me?? I am addressing my comments to Logos, the people who can do something about what I am addressing. I'm giving my reasons. If someone wants to express a different perspective, do so. Make your case. I promise you, I won't write a reply grilling you on why you see things the way you do.

I'm not trying to micro-manage how Logos does business. I'm a customer writing to express how their decisions are affecting me. Quizzing me, scolding me, etc., for conveying my concern and interest in how Logos decisions affect me...is just so bizarre, and kind of inappropriate. Mind YOUR relationship with Logos, if you please. Don't mind MINE.

[Y]. Well said!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268931#Comment_268931

EDIT: It occurred to me will I was getting my shower just now...why are people talking to me??

Fair question. I will give you my two answers.

My personal motivation is to encourage Logos to address the problem. (Squeaky wheel, nagging widow analogies) I would love to see some way made for the repeat customers to secure the great deals. We know Logos "powers-that-be" are creative when they need to be.
If you wanted a private chat with someone who has the power to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, you could just email Bob or Dan Pritchett directly. We fellow drowned rats around the fire-hose can't do anything, except keep the thread alive and hope the squeaky wheels get oiled.

I am fearful Logos has learned there are more thirsty people out there and instead of water they are offering a wide variety of refreshment. You and I, and all the other faithful repeat customers are not the only clientele in the house. And I can't afford everything on the menu.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268923#Comment_268923

I enjoy watching movies on the big screen. I watch more movies than most people, and I appreciate a wide range of styles. Even so, some weekends (some months!) there's nothing I want to see in our local theaters. Other weekends (hmm... around July and Christmas...) there are more movies I'd watch than time slots available that weekend -- or movie budget available.

Sometimes I don't get a chance to see a "big screen movie" on the big screen, and have to watch it on a smaller screen later on DVD.

Should they slow the pace of movies to only one good movie per weekend? Well, they try -- studios sometimes delay a big movie aimed at a certain demographics if another big movie aimed at the same group is releasing that weekend. (And Logos tries to pay attention to pre-pub releases -- we even have a chart that shows how many of the last 10 pre-pubs were purchased by how many different people, so we can identify excessive overlap.)

But still, there are lots of different movie fans, with many different interests, and hundreds of box office movies, and only 52 weeks in a year. Spacing out the movies I want, so I can watch one per weekend at the theater, means a lot fewer movies out there.

And what would that do to my wife? Who only wants to go to a theater for movies made from Jane Austen novels? Despite surprisingly prodigious output in this category, the industry can only offer her a movie or two a year. If they slowed releases to meet my desires, she'd have to go 5 years between trips to the theater.

I am, actually, sympathetic to the dilemma, and it's possible I'm even missing some clever solution. But as I understand it, it's nearly an impossible problem to fix. I just wanted to let you know that we are listening. But other than making every pre-pub discount price permanent (which would probably mean that people just defer orders until they _really_ want it, ending the value of pre-pub for getting things funded and actually produced), I don't know what we can do.

-- Bob

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268976#Comment_268976

So how many thousands of books do we need at $.50 a volume for a collection to be useable in ministry...with or without Adam Smith's contribution?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268983#Comment_268983

Wonder about pre-publication order edit option: once Logos sets a delivery date, could edit my delivery date => as soon as available or specify a future delivery date: up to 90 days later at pre-publication price. If 4 pre-publications are ready to ship in a week, could choose 1 to ship on time; 1 in one month; 1 in two months; and 1 in three months (effectively spread out billing, which would be nice for cash flow).

Once pre-publication has shipped, would like 3 options:

1. Ship now (at pre-publication price)

2. Wait for my date to ship (at pre-publication price)

3. Cancel

The email sent to confirm pre-publication billing could include delivery option date choice (with link to edit order). My default delivery date could be set to Logos estimated delivery date; if do not choose a future date, pre-publication ships as soon as ready (same as current system).

Knowing some Logos delivery dates change, when finally ships, can compare pre-publication with my delivery date. If my date is older, then ship now.

Keep Smiling [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268976#Comment_268976

I enjoy watching movies on the big screen. I watch more movies than most people, and I appreciate a wide range of styles. Even so, some weekends (some months!) there's nothing I want to see in our local theaters. Other weekends (hmm... around July and Christmas...) there are more movies I'd watch than time slots available that weekend -- or movie budget available.

Sometimes I don't get a chance to see a "big screen movie" on the big screen, and have to watch it on a smaller screen later on DVD.

Should they slow the pace of movies to only one good movie per weekend? Well, they try -- studios sometimes delay a big movie aimed at a certain demographics if another big movie aimed at the same group is releasing that weekend. (And Logos tries to pay attention to pre-pub releases -- we even have a chart that shows how many of the last 10 pre-pubs were purchased by how many different people, so we can identify excessive overlap.)

But still, there are lots of different movie fans, with many different interests, and hundreds of box office movies, and only 52 weeks in a year. Spacing out the movies I want, so I can watch one per weekend at the theater, means a lot fewer movies out there.

And what would that do to my wife? Who only wants to go to a theater for movies made from Jane Austen novels? Despite surprisingly prodigious output in this category, the industry can only offer her a movie or two a year. If they slowed releases to meet my desires, she'd have to go 5 years between trips to the theater.

I am, actually, sympathetic to the dilemma, and it's possible I'm even missing some clever solution. But as I understand it, it's nearly an impossible problem to fix. I just wanted to let you know that we are listening. But other than making every pre-pub discount price permanent (which would probably mean that people just defer orders until they _really_ want it, ending the value of pre-pub for getting things funded and actually produced), I don't know what we can do.

-- Bob

First, let me preface this post I am writing now, so I am not construed as a "kiss up". [N] I expressed my thoughts earlier in this thread against David Paul's rant about Logos release policy.

My prior post was written before Bob posted his analogy about movies, which by the way, I think is spot on! I also think the logic they (Logos) use in charting out the pre-pub release's is brilliant and a great management tool in order to keep their finger on the pulse.

Don't misconstrue this post, I love the likes of David Paul's (types of people), frankly because they speak their minds (after all he has a Ram head as an Avatar) and he has good logic...(typically, just not this time)

(edit) Oh, by the way I just read Keep Smiling 4 Jesus's post -- Brilliant solution! [*]

Peace an Joy in Him!

Mike

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269004#Comment_269004

First, let me preface this post I am writing now, so I am not construed

......

Hee Hee Hee [:D]

Bob posted his analogy about movies, which by the way, I think is spot on!

The movie analogy works but for one detail: The older a movie gets, the cheaper it gets. A Logos resource goes up in price the longer you wait to buy it. (How's that for a fanboy critiquing the CEO? [6] )

(edit) Oh, by the way I just read Keep Smiling 4 Jesus's post -- Brilliant solution!

Yes, it is brilliant but would take some tinkering on the website. (Can't be done this month. [:(] )

How about another snapshot? Or did I burn my bridges with that fanboy joke? (It was a joke, you know?)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269012#Comment_269012

The movie analogy works but for one detail: The older a movie gets, the cheaper it gets. A Logos resource goes up in price the longer you wait to buy it. (How's that for a fanboy critiquing the CEO? )

When it gets old enough it appears in CP rather than PP[:P]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269020#Comment_269020

The movie analogy works but for one detail: The older a movie gets, the cheaper it gets. A Logos resource goes up in price the longer you wait to buy it. (How's that for a fanboy critiquing the CEO? )

When it gets old enough it appears in CP rather than PP

Barnes Notes & quite a few others did do that, didn't they?

I guess the movie analogy works, sometimes. Where's my popcorn?

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269000#Comment_269000

Once pre-publication has shipped, would like 3 options:

1. Ship now (at pre-publication price)

2. Wait for my date to ship (at pre-publication price)

3. Cancel

KS4J -

I think this is a great idea - you should make the suggestion "official". [:)]

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/268898#Comment_268898

edit: I buy too much and have no desire to stop.

Logos is not responsible for keeping my "wants" in check.

Matthew, you're an addict. We're going to have to do an intervention and put you on a 12 step program. [;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269000#Comment_269000

Wonder about pre-publication order edit option: once Logos sets a delivery date, could edit my delivery date => as soon as available or specify a future delivery date: up to 90 days later at pre-publication price. If 4 pre-publications are ready to ship in a week, could choose 1 to ship on time; 1 in one month; 1 in two months; and 1 in three months (effectively spread out billing, which would be nice for cash flow).

Once pre-publication has shipped, would like 3 options:

1. Ship now (at pre-publication price)

2. Wait for my date to ship (at pre-publication price)

3. Cancel

The email sent to confirm pre-publication billing could include delivery option date choice (with link to edit order). My default delivery date could be set to Logos estimated delivery date; if do not choose a future date, pre-publication ships as soon as ready (same as current system).

Knowing some Logos delivery dates change, when finally ships, can compare pre-publication with my delivery date. If my date is older, then ship now.

Keep Smiling

As a continuing response to this new situation of PrePub glut, I can see this helping...but only up to a point. My $1500 in current PrePubs would still have to be cut drastically (say half)...and leave me hoping that in 2-3 weeks from now they don't drop another $1K on me. Because that would just put me back in square one. It's better than nothing I suppose, but it isn't a cure in my book. Of course, sometimes you just have to take the best of two not-so-great options. This is better than doing nothing. [*-)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269187#Comment_269187

My $1500 in current PrePubs would still have to be cut drastically (say half)...and leave me hoping that in 2-3 weeks from now they don't drop another $1K on me. Because that would just put me back in square one. It's better than nothing I suppose, but it isn't a cure in my book. Of course, sometimes you just have to take the best of two not-so-great options. This is better than doing nothing.

The October 2010 Pre-Pub snapshot plan would handle all your worries. But I don't think that will happen again. [:(]

David McClister

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269186#Comment_269186

I guess I just do not understand the point of the original post. It seems equivalent to saying that it is unfair to consumers (and to me in particular) for Eerdmans, or Baker, or Doubleday, or Fortress, or Random House, or any other publisher to publish so many books in a year because I cannot afford to buy all the titles I want (even when offered at a discount). I'm sorry, but I don't understand how this can be a criticism of Logos or its gracious pre-pub policies.

The poster said: "In the next 3 weeks, Logos expects me to come up with $1900 for PrePubs." That's because you said you would pay that amount for the books you ordered. It seems the solution is simple: if you cannot afford $1900 of books, don't order them. Logos is not at fault here.

And as for the suggestion (#2) "Wait for my date to ship (at pre-publication price)" -- I certainly would not expect Logos to hold an initial offering sale price for me while everyone else is expected to buy the book at the regular price.

Edwin Bowden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269186#Comment_269186

edit: I buy too much and have no desire to stop.

Logos is not responsible for keeping my "wants" in check.

Matthew, you're an addict. We're going to have to do an intervention and put you on a 12 step program.

He thinks the 12 Days of Logos Sale is a 12 step program. [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/269189#Comment_269189

I guess I just do not understand the point of the original post.

In reality it is just a lament. When people suffer, they sometimes lose perspective. To miss out on something wonderful causes one to suffer.

Your post is quite rational. Having said that, I empathize with the original poster in the sense of loss. I hope you can understand our irrationality without too much condemnation. [:'(]