Logos in a congregation?

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BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 10 2011 9:00 PM

Michael Hite:

1. What package is best suited for the average member?

2. Have you conducted any training classes to help them learn?

3. What objections or resistance have you encountered to the average member adopting these types of tools?

I'd like to take a little different tack on your question. I don't try to encourage them to purchase Logos, directly. Instead, I use a PC, Logos, & a projector for all the Bible classes I teach. And we search for answers to questions that pop up in the study. We do this on screen while they watch. I've had more interest in Logos as they watch how easy it is to use than I ever did before I started teaching this way.

We even use morph data to get back to lexical entries, when it helps to bring out a point, though I'll confess I let interlinears & reverse interliners help speed that process during class.

Cost is their biggest concern. They're VERY interested in Bible study. But the cost is VERY high, from their view point.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 10 2011 9:10 PM

Michael Hite:

Thanks for the suggestion on Vyrso. What I am wanting to do is help show the average member that the tools in a product like Logos can not only enhance their personal Bible study, it can transform it! Tools like Passage Guide and even Exegetical Guide can be easy to use and can help the average Christian begin a much deeper study of the Scriptures. Vyrso is a great product, but it doesn't offer much in the way of study tools that I am aware of.

Michael - 

First, I want to make sure we are on the same page. "Vyrso" is the name Logos is giving to its new Trade Book venture. These are not necessarily "academic" books (many will be "Christian Fiction"), but there will be some good titles for group studies. My point is that if your church were to have, a women's bible study (for example), studying a book by Beth Moore, you could suggest that the ladies purchase the book through Vyrso. You could also have someone create a study guide and publish it through PBB. Since Vyrso books are readable through the FREE LOGOS 4 base engine, it would therefore be an introduction to Logos.

I agree with others that the "average" church attender is unlikely to make an investment in Logos. This does not mean, however, that it is inappropriate to encourage them to do so. The "average" church attender does not regularly read their Bible, or pray, or engage in purposeful spiritual disciplines, but this should not stop us from encouraging them to do so.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 10 2011 9:12 PM

BillS:
I don't try to encourage them to purchase Logos, directly. Instead, I use a PC, Logos, & a projector for all the Bible classes I teach. And we search for answers to questions that pop up in the study. We do this on screen while they watch. I've had more interest in Logos as they watch how easy it is to use than I ever did before I started teaching this way.

Yes

 

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 10 2011 9:35 PM

alabama24 ... are you sure your last paragraph was what you meant to write.  I don't want to offend, but off the top of my head, I don't think I've been in a church in the last few years that 'the average church attender .....'.  In fact at the present two I attend I can honestly say I'm the 'backslider' if you will.  "Run faster, Denise, run faster!" Our pastor even puts his sermons outside the church several days before Sunday so you can 'argue' with him (I say this smilingly).


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Mikko Paavola | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 6:54 AM

What about the free Logos 4 engine + the free resources available in logos.com (perhaps also some old free Libronix resources) + a good cheap basic resource, like ESV Study Bible (or The Lutheran Study Bible including ESV for Lutherans, etc.) as a start? And when the PB store will be launched the pastor could make some PB Bible study material available for his congregation. Then those who would like to invest more could buy a base package (Bible Study) and other resources.

I started with the free ones + The Lutheran Study Bible and was so impressed that now I have the Scholar's package, Nelson Bible Reference Bundle (with WBC), Luther's Works, Lenski's NT commentary set, The People's Bible Commentary set, the IVP Reference Collection 3 + some other resources.

 

Faithlife Connect + several Base Packages + Luther's Works, etc.
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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 2:17 PM

Denise Barnhart:
are you sure your last paragraph was what you meant to write.

Yes. It was not meant to be offensive, and I am sorry if it came across as such. Many contemporary researchers will affirm what I said. If I were to qualify my statement, I could add that the "average" church attender also attends infrequently. I understand that this will be more or less true at any given church fellowship. As my forum name would suggest, I have roots in the south (although I grew up elsewhere). I always felt it was strange, but there are MANY churches with more "inactive" members than actual weekly attenders (i.e. a church with an average weekly attendance of 100, but a membership role of 500).

One source you can look up is George Barna. I found an interview online. Here is a snippet:

George Barna:

As you suggest, most people do not really spend very much time or devote very much effort to any kind of systematic, long term, goal-oriented study of what scripture teaches. We found that very few Christians really have any kinds of goals for what kind of believer or spiritual person they want to become, which is kind of like constantly making it up as we go along.

You can read the Barna Interview HERE.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 2:48 PM

alabama24:

George Barna:

As you suggest, most people do not really spend very much time or devote very much effort to any kind of systematic, long term, goal-oriented study of what scripture teaches. We found that very few Christians really have any kinds of goals for what kind of believer or spiritual person they want to become, which is kind of like constantly making it up as we go along.

You can read the Barna Interview HERE.

I find the adjectives "systematic" and "goal-oriented" would eliminate a number of people I consider very serious about their spiritual growth.

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 3:30 PM

alabama24:
One source you can look up is George Barna. I found an interview online. Here is a snippet:

Interesting, from 2002. I bet George Barna never saw this one coming:

When the Rolling Stones released "Sympathy For The Devil" in 1968 the public reaction to it was shock and criticism. It is only one generation later we see it is performed in an Easter Morning service at a church in Missouri. (They took out the "d..." word but left everything else unchanged. The only name praised in the song is "Lucifer.")

I found this disturbing revelation here: at  .."The Museum of Idolatry is the worlds largest collection of artifacts of apostasy. We have over 1500 exhibits and we're adding new exhibits regularly."  If your church is "goal-oriented" and "systematic" in attempts to fill pews at any price you just may find them among the museum's exhibits!

warning: If you love the Church Jesus bought with His blood you will be disturbed at what passes for the Gospel message.      Angry Tongue Tied Indifferent Crying

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 3:40 PM

MJ. Smith:
I find the adjectives "systematic" and "goal-oriented" would eliminate a number of people I consider very serious about their spiritual growth.

MJ - 

I know that there are a great deal of "streams" of faith that are very different than mine. I am speaking in the most general terms now. My words are primarily targeted towards a western audience, but it is my observation that there is a strong trend towards the secularization of most faiths (Christian and otherwise). I mean no offense to anyone. Smile I am thankful for authors such as Dallas Willard and Richard Foster [Logos... hint, hint] for introducing me to these streams. I am not sure what Barna has in mind by "systematic" and "goal-oriented," perhaps "intentional" would be a better word.

The original post was inquiring about encouraging "average church members to purchase Logos" to with the goal of helping "average members to dig deeper." My suggestion, [to encourage members to purchase a Vyrso resource for a book study & utilizing a PBB study guide] was meant to help those who have come to the same conclusion as Barna. I think that the author of the original post would agree with Barna's conclusion, or else he would not have a compelling urge to help "average members to dig deeper."

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 3:44 PM

MJ. Smith:
I find the adjectives "systematic" and "goal-oriented" would eliminate a number of people I consider very serious about their spiritual growth.

MJ - 

I know that there are a great deal of "streams" of faith that are very different than mine. I am speaking in the most general terms now. My words are primarily targeted towards a western audience, but it is my observation that there is a strong trend towards the secularization of most faiths (Christian and otherwise). I mean no offense to anyone. Smile I am thankful for authors such as Dallas Willard and Richard Foster [Logos... hint, hint] for introducing me to these streams. I am not sure what Barna has in mind by "systematic" and "goal-oriented," perhaps "intentional" would be a better word.

The original post was inquiring about encouraging "average church members to purchase Logos" to with the goal of helping "average members to dig deeper." My suggestion, [to encourage members to purchase a Vyrso resource for a book study & utilizing a PBB study guide] was meant to help those who have come to the same conclusion as Barna. I think that the author of the original post would agree with Barna's conclusion, or else he would not have a compelling urge to help "average members to dig deeper."

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 4:14 PM

alabama24 ... I hope you know we're just discussing; not being critical or anything.

But I wonder if the typical research starts with an average person, qualifies them as 'Christian' and then goes from there (eg phone call survey).

The alternative is to show up on Sunday, pull a member aside and interview them. The latter is where I was coming from. I don't think Sedona has  successfully collared 'studying Christians'. Maybe new-agers (along with Goddess Temples and the Phoenix police). But I am forever amazed at the interest of people, once you get past their 'reserve'. I'm even more amazed in a Bible class, how talkative and animated people become, once 'the right answer' isn't on the table.

I have an agnostic friend, whose wife attends our church. We were at their dinner table with some neighbors who'd just come home from mass. Being the brave soul, I popped up a religious comment, only to be surprised at how well versed our Catholic friends were. And not offended, etc either.

I agree the broad population of 'Christians' isn't too enthused. But the good pastor for this thread was at a church, with attending believers. I'd bet they're a lot more interested than anyone would expect. And if Logos were overlayed with 'their world' (the way they study), I'd bet they be customers.

 


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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 4:56 PM

Denise Barnhart:
alabama24 ... I hope you know we're just discussing; not being critical or anything.

Denise - 

I was just making sure you didn't think I was being offensive. I took no offense at your comments. Smile

Denise Barnhart:
I am forever amazed at the interest of people, once you get past their 'reserve'. I'm even more amazed in a Bible class, how talkative and animated people become, once 'the right answer' isn't on the table.

My comments were not aimed at what "should" be or what "could" be, but rather my personal observations. If I didn't think people could be changed, I would not be in ministry Smile

Denise Barnhart:
I popped up a religious comment, only to be surprised at how well versed our Catholic friends were.

I have often found the same to be true. 

Denise Barnhart:
I'd bet they're a lot more interested than anyone would expect. And if Logos were overlayed with 'their world' (the way they study), I'd bet they be customers.

I agree wholeheartedly! Much of my comments were pragmatic in nature - i.e. "How do I 'sell' Logos to my parishioners." In my opinion, Logos is a great product and speaks for itself. The trick is to find a good way to introduce it to others. If you can get people reading a Vyrso book through the free engine, with PBB study notes, many will want more. Of course, I loved Pastor Bill's technique of teaching with Logos open via projector. I could see myself doing that in the right environment. 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 5:53 PM

alabama24:
Of course, I loved Pastor Bill's technique of teaching with Logos open via projector.

Related question is: What can be done using Logos Bible Software that cannot be duplicated with an internet search ?

One Logos 4 example is morphology visual filter highlighting.  Looking forward to Logos mobile sync of highlighting, notes, and Personal Books that consistently works in a timely manner (ideally within a minute between mobile device and Logos 4).

Another Logos 4 example is Bible Word Study tool to explore range of word meaning and usage.

Thankful for "+" to quickly open a similar resource containing Bible reference.

Thankful can search for many items without pop-up advertising (and quickly find articles in digital library).

Thankful Logos 4 can be used on a laptop without internet access.

Keep Smiling Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 6:45 PM

I've basically given my view of how to spread Logos in a congregation at http://community.logos.com/forums/t/38015.aspx

More generically, the factors that need to be considered are:

  1. How to make it appealing financially i.e. not more than they spent on books or recreation
  2. How to make it simple as well as relevant - not overwhelming
  3. How to make it useful for daily use (mobile with devotions/prayer books/reading plans)
  4. How to make it relate directly with their experience of church (PB's of sermons and education)
  5. How to encourage considering expanding library (annual subscription items)
  6. How to make it encourage reading Scripture (short term reading plans)

Put another way, one doesn't encourage someone to learn to swim by dropping them off the high dive board On the other hand, if you're teaching them to swim you don't give up because they aren't swimming already.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 7:02 PM

Here's a rather no-brainer approach. If you buy one of the better ESV bibles, there's a free software offer for a basic Logos 3 installation. Almost anyone can get one of these bibles for relatively little money and get a chance to try Logos out. The other alternative is to get one of the popular library discs. I started with the MacArthur one I bought from Grace to You. 

I realize that one of the popular freeware programs would satisfy most people in a congregation, but Logos is like a good leather bible--it seems to be of increasing value as you use it. Considering that you can have a Logos 4 package for about the same money as you'd now spend on a real good leather bible, it's not hard to justify.

 

 

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Mark Watson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 7:56 PM

Michael,

At the last church I pastored, I purchased 10 copies of Libronix 3 based eBible software for $19.95 each and passed out to ten persons in a Bible Study class with older computers.  Worked well for me to introduce persons to Logos as a company and gave them some basic tools cheaper than they could have purchased in print at the local Christian bookstores.

I was at a certain Christian bookstore the other day and noticed that they have Jon Courson's eBible collection on sale that works in Logos 3. - Just FYI.

Mark

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Glenn F | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 8:59 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Thankful Logos 4 can be used on a laptop without internet access.

 

A big AMEN to that!!  YesYesYes I do not have internet access most nights, so it would be useless to me without this capability.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 11 2011 10:09 PM

Michael Ballai:
If you buy one of the better ESV bibles, there's a free software offer for a basic Logos 3 installation.

Would never fly in my world ... ESV is rarely mentioned.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Greg Corbin | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 12 2011 7:13 PM

Interestingly, my experience has proven to the be opposite of many. After many years happily using a cheaper and inferior Bible software, I "discovered" Logos in 2008 and my Bible study world has not been the same since!  Surprisingly, I encountered a number of laypeople in our church who use Logos - some of whom have larger libraries than I do (and I have 1200+ volumes/Gold package).  Last year, we hosted a Camp Logos and had many laypeople attend from our church and other churches in the area - probably at least 1/3 were not professional ministers. 

This trend is likely due to the fact that I serve in an area (Huntsville, Alabama) that is home to many highly educated, high-tech professional scientists, engineers, etc.  I am amazed at the hunger for learning and depth of study among some of our laypeople. Many of them make their living with their mind and they carry that over to anything they are involved with. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 12 2011 7:33 PM

Greg Corbin:
I serve in an area (Huntsville, Alabama) that is home to many highly educated, high-tech professional scientists, engineers, etc.

Greg - 

My family is from Huntsville, and although I grew up elsewhere, I consider it a "second home." 

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