The undeniably controversial pastor Mark Driscoll weighs in on Logos

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This post has 58 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 102
Charles Tondee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 10:39 AM

I think the bit on prayer  to oneself is a little overstated or maybe that is the purpose. I don't think it's the golden road, as there must be serious personal effort and work put into the passage. Prayer is not a shortcut to understanding. If the things of God are spiritually discerned, there is nothing wrong with invoking the aid of the "one who will guide you into all truth" Not a shortcut, but the one who aids in spiritual discernment.

George I do agree wholeheartedly  with your last two sentence!

I think Kenneth summed it up wonderfully with Point 2 of his post, with the original languages we disregard at our own peril. Yet I have a sunday school teacher at the church I pastor who knows nothing of Original languages, but studies the Word of God constantly, faithfully teaches and applies it, (I sit in and listen to our teachers) and has an impact on his students who are growing tremendously in their walk with the Lord. Greater than that He is probably the best witness I have ever met. 

I understand the point that is being made by both Pat and George. I can see both sides. I went to a few churches, which preached the English translation sufficed and was all you needed, and found their message was extremely shallow and usually everything boiled do this get this results. I find Balance is the key to many areas in the Christian Life (NOT SAYING ANYONE HERE IS UNBALANCED). 

As a child of God, I crave the deeper things of the Bible, and find for myself, I am unsatisfied with shallow preaching. That is reflected in my study of God's Word, I desire to understand the scriptures and that requires deep study and meditation.Problem is there are many who have no desire to study the Bible, no concern for growing deeper in relationship with Him and they  occupy space within a church.   ( I appreciate these forums because its not just scholars and pastors but includes many lay people who demonstrate they have a desire to know God's word)

We might not agree on every point, but I thank the Lord for each of you and your desire to know Him more deeply through His Word. These forums have helped me tremendously by seeing other peoples viewpoints. 

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 10:41 AM

Dan DeVilder:
because we are all thoughtful, logos forum abiding members. . .  Angel

Dan, you need to remember the final form of the sigma.  Angry (not really)

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 102
Charles Tondee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 10:47 AM

Halo Hound:
Study is important. Study is the natural product of someone who sincerely cares. But study without the Holy Spirit is nothing more then my opinion vs. someone elses. So why should I think my fallibility is less substantial then theirs? Holy Spirit + Careful study + Humility is a powerful combination. Logos can do great things for that Careful Study part.

 Yes

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 11:00 AM

Dan DeVilder:
Will it?  NO!   because we are all thoughtful, logos forum abiding members. . . 

.

YesYes 

 I agree that study of the original language is very valuable however other aspects of interpretation are important as well (Historical context for example).  I'm sure we've all heard ministers make a point based on an outdated understanding of the language (aorist tense anyone?) or a nuance of a word where the overall picture of scripture did not support this (Jn.21:16 comes to mind)  I believe that the variety of resources that LOGOS provides and the ability to access them quickly can make the time we have to devote to study much more productive.  I think that may have been the point of Mr. Driscoll's comment.

Posts 29270
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 11:19 AM

I am not going to get involved in this discussion any more than to say that Jesus used a translation. Wink

macOS, iOS & iPadOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 11:36 AM

alabama24:

I am not going to get involved in this discussion any more than to say that Jesus used a translation. Wink

Prove it.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1793
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 1:17 PM

George Somsel:

alabama24:

I am not going to get involved in this discussion any more than to say that Jesus used a translation. Wink

 

Prove it.

If I may use Colbert Logic on this one...[[Sarcasm_Mode=ON]]

1)  Jesus spoke the red letters of my red letter KJV

2)  The KJV is a translation

3)  Ergo, Jesus used a translation which was printed almost 1600 years later when he was preaching and teaching.

I just couldn't resist...

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 31976
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 1:24 PM

Big Smile Kenneth

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 133
jwsheets | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 1:26 PM

I have a theology degree, and I study from the original languages. I am appreciative for the tool that these things are in my study of Scripture. But I would be hesitant to say that a knowledge of the original languages is a necessary prerequisite to knowing, understanding or living the truths taught in the Bible. First, Jesus didn't use the original text, He used the Septuagint - a translation. Second, the Bible (both testaments) were written to primarily illiterate peoples who didn't even have access to a the Bible in any form. It is not Father, Son and Holy Book (even if it is a Greek book). Hearing, believing and responding under the influence of Holy Spirit is all that is required. But I do love the original languages tools in Logos   Wink

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 2:19 PM

Kenneth McGuire:

If I may use Colbert Logic on this one...[[Sarcasm_Mode=ON]]

1)  Jesus spoke the red letters of my red letter KJV

2)  The KJV is a translation

3)  Ergo, Jesus used a translation which was printed almost 1600 years later when he was preaching and teaching.

I just couldn't resist...

Give me that old King James version;
Give me that old King James version;
Give me that old King James version;
It's good enough for me.

It was good enough for Moses;
It was good enough for Moses;
It was good enough for Moses:
It's good enough for me.

Sing it, folks !  Big Smile

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 2:21 PM

jwsheets:
Jesus didn't use the original text, He used the Septuagint

Prove it.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 5:48 PM

Oh, George ... everyone KNOWS Jesus went to Sepphoris Bible College, which at the time had one of the better alexandrian greek programs. It was Matthew that was the big question mark.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 6:16 PM

Denise Barnhart:

Oh, George ... everyone KNOWS Jesus went to Sepphoris Bible College, which at the time had one of the better alexandrian greek programs. It was Matthew that was the big question mark.

You mean he didn't go to Tiberias Technical Training School?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 885
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 6:28 PM

alabama24:

I am not going to get involved in this discussion any more than to say that Jesus used a translation. Wink

Maybe Jesus didn't., but many of the authors of the New Testament appear to have used the LXX, not the "original Hebrew" (which itself in parts may be a translation from Akkadian or Sumerian? - just guessin').

Plus, words are just symbols. When spoken, they're air/sonic wave pressure against the ear drums, which is translated by brain nerves, and when written, they're simply colored photons intercepted by the eye and electrically sent to and translated by the brain.

In fact, everything we sense is, in a sense, a translation and interpretation.

Reading the above in the right state of mind can cause you to achieve enlightenment.

 

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 1358
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 7:02 PM

I believe that it is agreed that the everyday language that Jesus used was not Greek. When we read the Gospel accounts of Jesus, we are reading a translation.

Posts 902
Brother Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 7:18 PM

Brother Mark:
Although some of us won't be able to resist commenting on Pastor Driscoll's lightning-rod methods/doctrine/ethics/etc.... I was only aiming to share Yet Another Prestigious Person's (YAPP) endorsement of Logos. Wink

....And thank you pastor Driscoll for the controversy we've all enjoyed in the thread... (seriously, you just KNEW the sparks would fly with that one hour of prep comment, but who knew it would zag in this direction?)

"I read dead people..."

Posts 255
Pat Flanakin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 22 2011 1:53 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:

I am very sorry Pat that you are unwilling to listen to a person who doesn't have the right education. Can you please interpret 1 Cor. 1:27 for me?

 

Mr. Purcell, are we referring to those with the gift of pastor-teacher, or believers in the church in general?  I have no doubt that those with worldly sub-average IQs can be gifted with pastor-teacher abilities through the HS and go on to get educated well and teach.

There are pastors-in-name-only who don't have the gift who are lauded as having it, no doubt you would agree.  Of course God knows who they are, but the Bible defines a pastor's responsibility quite clearly, apart from the sheepfold.

Lastly, by right education, I take you are referring to where I state that I am hard pressed (not implacably hard pressed) to listen to a pastor who doesn't study and prepare sermons based on knowledge of the original languages.  I stand by that statement. 

 

Posts 31976
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 22 2011 2:32 PM

Pat Flanakin:
Lastly, by right education, I take you are referring to where I state that I am hard pressed (not implacably hard pressed) to listen to a pastor who doesn't study and prepare sermons based on knowledge of the original languages.  I stand by that statement. 

Pat, I appreciate your tone and the way you have put your position forward. Given the parish to which I belong, it may well have been 40 years or more since I've heard a Sunday sermon from someone who wasn't comfortable in the original languages. However, since we expect sermons daily I've heard many sermons that were not built on hours of study that particular week but were built on years of study and life experience. Because of this, I have a different take than you on how I judge a sermon - I judge a sermon based on the quality of the message not on the preparation of the message.

That being said, I suspect that I could get you to reword your statement to something closer to "I more easily trust a pastor to present a high quality sermon if I know that they spend time in study and know the original languages." Stated in that way, I would agree with you. Smile

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5317
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 22 2011 3:12 PM

Pat Flanakin:

Lastly, by right education, I take you are referring to where I state that I am hard pressed (not implacably hard pressed) to listen to a pastor who doesn't study and prepare sermons based on knowledge of the original languages.  I stand by that statement. 

Well each to their own, I would gladly listen to sermon by Billy Graham any day...

 

-Dan

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 22 2011 3:29 PM

Dan Francis:

Pat Flanakin:

Lastly, by right education, I take you are referring to where I state that I am hard pressed (not implacably hard pressed) to listen to a pastor who doesn't study and prepare sermons based on knowledge of the original languages.  I stand by that statement. 

Well each to their own, I would gladly listen to sermon by Billy Graham any day...

 

-Dan

Without intending to show any lack of respect for Billy Graham who is something of an icon, a distinction needs to be made regarding gifts.  Billy Graham is an evangelist.  Others are pastors.  Some need milk while others need meat.  I would hope that by now I am beyond the bottle stage and would not be interested in a sermon by Billy Graham.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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