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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 7:55 AM

Vladimir Lukyanov:
Oh, no! I am talking about logging in to Amazon's "Your Highlights" page, copying and pasting it to Word, saving it to .docx and creating a PB.  takes about two minutes.  It allows Logos to index all of highlights or quotes I find pertinent as well as my notes on the text.
That is a creative application of the Personal Book Tool that raises more questions than it answers. Your view and my view of copyright law probably differs from the publishers Amazon serves. If Logos is served an injunction from a federal court to remove the Personal Book Tool feature pending a final decision in a copyright suit (remember Napster?) We will all be losers. I thank you for bringing up the possibility. Let's not walk out any further on that ice.

As far as Vyrso goes: Floyd is still right, "Shop" around and buy the best deal that works for you. I'm thankful we have an extra choice. (Last year we did not have Vyrso as an option.)

edit: Vladimir, I do understand exactly how you are applying this process and I have no problem with it. I'm concerned others may claim your original notes are an extension of their works. Dumber ideas have prevailed in US courts......Confused  UPS successfully trademarked the color brown. I can't wait until UPS sues the Oklahoma Highway Patrol for wearing brown uniforms.

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toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 8:58 AM

Super Tramp:

That is a creative application of the Personal Book Tool that raises more questions than it answers. Your view and my view of copyright law probably differs from the publishers Amazon serves. If Logos is served an injunction from a federal court to remove the Personal Book Tool feature pending a final decision in a copyright suit (remember Napster?) We will all be losers. I thank you for bringing up the possibility. Let's not walk out any further on that ice.

As far as Vyrso goes: Floyd is still right, "Shop" around and buy the best deal that works for you. I'm thankful we have an extra choice. (Last year we did not have Vyrso as an option.)

edit: Vladimir, I do understand exactly how you are applying this process and I have no problem with it. I'm concerned others may claim your original notes are an extension of their works. Dumber ideas have prevailed in US courts......

WOW! Surprise

OK, let me just show what I am talking about:

The copyright laws actually protect BOTH the consumer and creator.  As far as Fair Use doctrine goes, a consumer has a right to use copyrighted materials (even if he did not purchase a book, but checked it out a local library, for example) for study, review, parody, etc., including copying and publishing direct quotes up to a certain length. Let's not be afraid of the boogey-man or afraid to exercise our right. Good laws define our freedom and responsibilities.

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 9:37 AM

Vladimir Lukyanov:
Oh, no! I am talking about logging in to Amazon's "Your Highlights" page, copying and pasting it to Word, saving it to .docx and creating a PB.  takes about two minutes.  It allows Logos to index all of highlights or quotes I find pertinent as well as my notes on the text.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. I don't think you even begin to venture into copyright category until you share that .docx with others to integrate into their libraries. Even then, it depends on how much you are quoting.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 10:20 AM

Vladimir Lukyanov:
Oh, no! I am talking about logging in to Amazon's "Your Highlights" page, copying and pasting it to Word, saving it to .docx and creating a PB.  takes about two minutes.  It allows Logos to index all of highlights or quotes I find pertinent as well as my notes on the text.

I had not heard of that. I will take a look. Most of my purchases will still be in Vyrso though Smile

 

Vladimir Lukyanov:
Let's not be afraid of the boogey-man or afraid to exercise our right. Good laws define our freedom and responsibilities.

Yes

 

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toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 10:40 AM

Actually I stand corrected: Fair Use is not a right, but a legal defense.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 4:37 PM

 

Vladimir Lukyanov:
As far as Fair Use doctrine goes,
Vladimir Lukyanov:
Good laws define our freedom and responsibilities.

I know how the Fair Use clause reads. The problem is most people, especially "educational" institutions violate the time requirement for destroying the copies. What? Surprise You didn't know you have a very short time in which to use & then destroy the copy? Many universities bookstores & educators regularly abuse the Fair Use clause in the name of the holy cow of education. Some churches also believe they are above the law because "my kingdom is not of this world" and I don't want to pay royalties for teaching materials or sheet music.

My whole aversion to the "boogey-man" is well-founded. Napster was held accountable for what it's users were doing with files. Internet service providers are held accountable for what travels through their hardware once they have received legal notice. A couple decades ago the FBI did a sweep that closed down BBS services across the nation, including the editors of Boardwatch magazine. It all had to do with pirated software residing on their servers. When the RIAA sues, they go after the most effective target. As ebooks replace hard copies, we will see more theft & more lawsuits.

Super Tramp:
edit: Vladimir, I do understand exactly how you are applying this process and I have no problem with it.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 5:23 PM

Super Tramp:
I'm concerned others may claim your original notes are an extension of their works.

Do you have any substantiation of this fear?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 5:32 PM

Super Tramp:
The problem is most people, especially "educational" institutions violate the time requirement for destroying the copies. What? Surprise You didn't know you have a very short time in which to use & then destroy the copy? Many universities bookstores & educators regularly abuse the Fair Use clause in the name of the holy cow of education.

I find nothing in fair use rules at Stanford or Columbia to substantiate your claims either re:destroying the copy when it is personal notes or that education is a holy cow. In fact, in America cows are Angus, Hereford. Charlois ... none of which are holy.

 

P.S. For those who don't know - I grew up on my Dad's cattle ranch (circa 500 cows).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 5:37 PM

MJ. Smith:
I find nothing in fair use rules at Stanford or Columbia to substantiate your claims either re:destroying the copy when it is personal notes or that education is a holy cow. In fact, in America cows are Angus, Hereford. Charlois ... none of which are holy.

I'm no cattle rancher but so long as there is swiss cheese I'll believe there are holey Cows.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 5:50 PM

Halo Hound:
I'm no cattle rancher but so long as there is swiss cheese I'll believe there are holey Cows.

YesBig Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 6:20 PM

Super Tramp:
I know how the Fair Use clause reads. The problem is most people, especially "educational" institutions violate the time requirement for destroying the copies. What? Surprise You didn't know you have a very short time in which to use & then destroy the copy? Many universities bookstores & educators regularly abuse the Fair Use clause in the name of the holy cow of education.

I'm curious about this.  I see no requirement for destroying copies in the fair use clause here:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

(Searching for "destroy" in that chapter only returns hits in the Ephemeral recordings section, and that is only for multiple copies beyond one archival copy.)

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 6:28 PM

MJ. Smith:
I find nothing in fair use rules at Stanford or Columbia to substantiate your claims either re:destroying the copy when it is personal notes or that education is a holy cow.
I will double quote myself for emphasis:
Super Tramp:
Super Tramp:
edit: Vladimir, I do understand exactly how you are applying this process and I have no problem with it.

Personal notes are just fine. That is why I have no problem with Vladamir's use of the PBT that way. But the "educational use" of copyrighted matertial only allows temporary, short term use and requires destruction of all copies when that specific occasion has been concluded.

My own conscience is fine with the many court rulings that side with consumers allowing conversion of formats of material the consumer has purchased a license for. (i.e. making a backup copy of a CD or making a cassette recording of an lp record) I love it that Logos has chosen to allow us to use purchased resources on many different platforms. Not everyone else is that progressive. Just because I can scan C.S. Lewis books and make L4 Personal Books out of them does not mean it is legal. And just because I have a legal right does not mean some publisher won't sue me or some judge won't find in their favor.

 

 

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Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 6:49 PM

I think overall you have to decide how you are going to use the books, if you are going to use them for research, get them for Logos, if you are just going to read them for fun get the Kindle edition.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2011 8:56 PM

Vladimir Lukyanov:
I was excited to see vyrso.com offering "thousands" of Christian books.  My delight was short-lived however. Although their selection in Christian ebooks may be broader (can anyone confirm that, maybe by posting Vyrso books that are not yet availble on Amazon) than Amazon's at the moment, I am amazed that Logos is charging 50% more than the same item on Amazon.

We're still evaluating where to land on pricing. However, we've just made a significant adjustment that I think you'll find much more competitive. We may not always be able to match Amazon, but I think you'll find us much closer now (and for books under $10 DLP, we'll often beat them). In some cases, the problem is that the DLP (digital list price) that the publishers provided us is higher than the one Amazon has. We're working to identify those and get them adjusted. If you notice any, feel free to report them.

Vladimir Lukyanov:
What am I missing? What features would justify me paying 50% or MORE for such a commodity item? A book is a book is a book.

Here are a few thoughts on why you might choose to spend a little more on Vyrso books than you would elsewhere:

  1. One license for all your content. IMO, this is huge. If you go with another platform, your ebook reading and your Bible study are in two separate worlds with an insurmountable chasm between them. Your ebooks will never be accessible within your Bible study world, and your Bible study materials will never be accessibile in your ebook world. Buying Vyrso ebooks means all your content is available on all Vyrso apps, Logos apps, Biblia.com, and anywhere else we decide to make it available in the future.
  2. Tagged Bible references. It's not a knock-your-socks-off feature, but it is nice. And it's just one indication that demonstrates that we want to make the Christian ebook experience better. Other similar features may follow. It's highly unlikely the bigger players in the ebook market will ever implement Christian-specific features.
  3. Cross-library searching. Other ebook platforms may let you search a single book at a time. With Vyrso you can search across your entire library at once.
  4. Free upgrades? We probably aren't going to have Vyrso and Logos editions of the same books. We'll license one or the other. However, in some cases we may license a book in Vyrso format and later decide that it would be better as a Logos book. Don't quote me on this—it still needs more internal discussion—but one approach we could take in this situation is to give everyone a free upgrade to the Logos edition when we retire the Vyrso edition. So you may get the quality of a Logos book for the price of a Vyrso book.
  5. Help make Logos better. If Vyrso is a success for us, everyone wins. We'll have the ability to invest more resources not just into Vyrso, but into making Logos Bible Software an even more amazing product.

Vladimir Lukyanov:
I for one would prefer reading my Logos books (or Christian trade books) on a Kindle and not visa versa.

And you may soon be able to. Amazon is probably soon announcing their new tablet (Kindle Fire?), which will run a modified version of Android. Presumably, the Vyrso and Logos Android apps could run on the device, giving you the ability to access your library there.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 27 2011 4:40 AM

Phil - 

Great Post. Thanks for the update!

Don't Quote Me On This:
Free upgrades? We probably aren't going to have Vyrso and Logos editions of the same books. We'll license one or the other. However, in some cases we may license a book in Vyrso format and later decide that it would be better as a Logos book. Don't quote me on this—it still needs more internal discussion—but one approach we could take in this situation is to give everyone a free upgrade to the Logos edition when we retire the Vyrso edition. So you may get the quality of a Logos book for the price of a Vyrso book.

OK. I didn't "quote" you. Smile However, I REALLY like this idea. Perhaps it could be considered as the "pre-pub" discount? 

 

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Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 1 2012 12:04 PM

Phil Gons:
Free upgrades? We probably aren't going to have Vyrso and Logos editions of the same books. We'll license one or the other. However, in some cases we may license a book in Vyrso format and later decide that it would be better as a Logos book. Don't quote me on this—it still needs more internal discussion—but one approach we could take in this situation is to give everyone a free upgrade to the Logos edition when we retire the Vyrso edition. So you may get the quality of a Logos book for the price of a Vyrso book.

I know this is a bit old, but I'd like to hear more about this so I'm reviving this thread.

Has a formal decision been made. If this was given as a reason to buy Vyrso books by an employee of Logos and then they choose officially to not offer this upgrade, then it might constitute a dishonest sales tactic. I understand it isn't a legal commitment since he said, "Don't quote me on this..." but people might  take Phil up on this and start buying Vyrso books only to feel a little duped if the choice goes the other way.

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 1 2012 12:29 PM

This was discussed a couple of days ago at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/53707/392033.aspx#392033, which also has a more recent quote.

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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 4 2012 11:42 AM

Super Tramp:
I have never purchased an eBook from Amazon. Do they allow you to access the book from multiple devices? I was under the impression they do not.

Let me correct you wrong impression.  Yes, they do.  My Kindle books read fine on the computer, the iPad, the iPhone, and other devices as well.

 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 4 2012 12:08 PM

One thing I appreciate with Logos/Vyrso is the ability to share or copy longer quotes. I wanted to share even a paragraph length portion from Kindle version and it gets cut off. I don't have that problem with Vyrso resources.

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The Redlines | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 4 2012 1:27 AM

Regardless of how the prices between the two companies might sit, a quick look at the ethics of both companies should clearly set your mind at ease doing business with Logos/Vyrso and quickly cause you to swear off doing any future business with Amazon. 

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