facing a bloat problem

I am very thankful to Logos for all of the electronic titles that I am fortunate to have, index, search and read. However, especially with Perseus collection being shipped right now and thousands of books coming via Vyrso channel, we (logos customers) are facing a huge UI deficiency in Library view. A cold and sterile "excel" like table just won't cut it with thousands of titles. A "picture" view of book covers is only a little better.

What I would like to see:

a page that looks like a bookshelf. Only if I want to, I would switch it to the spreadsheet view.
a few of dynamically generated categories/collections such a "last downloaded" or "last read" that would be just 1 click away, and not several as it currently stands. This would alleviate issues of users who download a couple of Vyrso books, which get drowned in Logos library.
"Hiding" books must be moved to the Library view and away from "Program Settings." Users must be allowed to select multiple resources at the same time and hide them (I am not a programmer, but I think it is done by a single binary switch "display/hide" and as such would be very easy to implement). I ordered Perseus collection as well as hundreds of other books that came in bundles, which I have no immediate use for. Can you imagine how long it would take to hide Perseus one title at a time? Can you imagine the processor resources expended to index all of the unnecessary books over a lifetime (and on multiple computers)? Why hasn't this issue given more design thought? Why this was put on the back burner is beyond me.
Logos could even create "people who bought what you have also purchased
..." or "you bought qqq, you may also be interested in QQQ" categories.

what do you think?

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Comments

Rich DeRuiter

what do you think?

Before Perseus I had about 2400 books. That's not really manageable either, unless you begin using the power of "My Tags." My Tags help organize and view relevant books easily.

Look at this wiki article for help on tagging: http://wiki.logos.com/Tagging

Really, it's worth it, and with a little effort it does make even the largest library quite manageable.

EDIT: I'm not suggesting anything about your other suggestions. I do like the idea of putting an option in Library view to hide books (although the effort to do this through settings, does make it harder to do this accidentally).

BTW, there is a "Last Updated" category (not quite "Last Downloaded" which would be different).

toughski

Richard, thank you for your reply.

I am well aware of mytags. I have Portfolio and many other collections that I purchased on top of that. There is no way a library of this size (I am not bragging, I know for a fact that there are others who have Logos libraries much bigger than mine) can be managed without mytags and custom collections.

However, mytags can be linked to an accelerator pedal and "hiding" unnecessary resources as the brake pedal. No amount of acceleration can substitute braking ability and visa versa. We NEED (not just want) both and have them well designed.

Richard, you suggested going to the Library, scroll to the "Last Updated" column, sort it, and then click on a resource. How many clicks is that? It could very easily be made into 1 click. Companies like Apple position themselves with best in class products because they put cool user-friendly design as one of the first priorities and not as afterthought.

By the way, "hidden" books should be removed from user's computer and index, but info about the book should be present in the Library view (maybe greyed out), so the user could get them back at any time.

Rich DeRuiter

Your suggestions sound better and better as you continue to describe what you're after. (Though I don't particularly like Apple's 'user friendly' design.)

Why not put this in the suggestions forum?

DMB

Agree that 'Hidden Resources' in the Settings doesn't make a lot of sense; belongs somewhere in the Library window.

Also, one by one putting resources in 'Hidden'??? That's going to be a pain with Perseus.

Anything that would make the library more intuitive and easier to manage would be good. I never dreamed my library would get much beyond the OL package.

Early on Mark built his visual-library view; I copied mine into an RTF, and it's a whole lot easier to keep track of what I have (especially to remember!).

I'd guess the present approach originated as you say from a spreadsheet concept.

Ward Walker

I've really had this problem when using the Android app--on-line library navigation is like moving the ocean with a spoon.

On the desktop, I've got much more screen real estate, but the available views haven't kept up with long-term logos users' library growth. Concur w/OP.

I use Logos nearly daily, but spend nearly no time on behind-the-scenes mgt tasks--which in part is why I like L4 much more than L3. I've done some tagging, but mostly just to define what I want to read & what I have read.

Dave Hooton

"Hiding" books must be moved to the Library view and away from "Program Settings." Users must be allowed to select multiple resources at the same time and hide them

This was reluctantly provided during initial beta testing in 2009 and the request to hide multiple books at a time came almost immediately! It's time to allow hiding via multiple selection in Library + a view to show hidden resources and allow unhiding.

a few of dynamically generated categories/collections such a "last downloaded" or "last read" that would be just 1 click away, and not several as it currently stands. This would alleviate issues of users who download a couple of Vyrso books, which get drowned in Logos library.

Much of the functionality was driven by Logos' "analysis" that too many options/menus increases complexity for users and Logos Support! But it is time to re-assess this in light of the vast increase of resources available and the different markets that Vyrso and Personal Books (PB) represent e.g. menu options to show only Logos, Vyrso or PB's. Also allow Collections to be viewed similarly to Series. Apart from that manipulating the columns or typing tag values is OK.

"last read" is a click away if you keep History open!

Dave Hooton

By the way, "hidden" books should be removed from user's computer and index, but info about the book should be present in the Library view (maybe greyed out), so the user could get them back at any time.

Hidden books are removed from the Resources folder when you restart L4, but removing them from the Index requires a costly re-index (several hours). The current system allows you to unhide "at any time" without indexing, so it is better to manually re-index when you have completely finished hiding.

BTW re-indexing does not provide a significant performance improvement, but it might save a few hundred MB of hard drive space.

steve clark

it is time to re-assess this in light of the vast increase of resources available and the different markets that Vyrso and Personal Books (PB) represent e.g. menu options to show only Logos, Vyrso or PB's.

There is this ability to some extent and it should provide a work-around for the time being. Just a current observation

toughski

BTW re-indexing does not provide a significant performance improvement, but it might save a few hundred MB of hard drive space.

I was talking about a situation in the future when we add resources that would trigger index rebuild. Why index unnecessary resources over and over and over and over...?

What about if a user buys a collection and can only use 50% of it. By Logos' own admission, that is their modus operandi. They make a deal with publishers (similar to music industry in years past) to include books that otherwise would not sell on their own into massive collections and give sers a huge discount. I actually like this system from a business standpoint, because such collection can attract a larger audience, users get a "perceived" value, publishers get sales volume and Logos gets to broaden their base. However, with such a collection Logos' design is that all of it must be downloaded, indexed and then 50% of resources manually hidden and re-indexed again? That is not only inefficient, it is a bad design.

EDIT: could it be possible to select multiple resources in Library, right click and chose "never to index" option? The more I am using L4 I am more and more convinced that indexing should be triggered manually. It is too disruptive when indexing starts when one is studying. This is why Logos provided the "pause indexing" option.

My paradigm would be that resources get automatically downloaded into the Library view, from which you could immediately hide it or index on demand. An even better option for huge collections would be downloading JUST the metadata of all resources into the Library, where you can sort, select multiple resources for downloading/ hiding/ indexing, etc.

Another related idea is to have 1 master switch, which would toggle "novice"/"advanced" options. Make novice options fully automated, but give advanced users advanced capabilities.

Dave Hooton

BTW re-indexing does not provide a significant performance improvement, but it might save a few hundred MB of hard drive space.

I was talking about a situation in the future when we add resources that would trigger index rebuild.

The context for my remark was your comment that hidden books should be removed from the index as this requires a rebuild.

When you add resources the individual resources are indexed and then merged into the main index, which is significantly faster than a rebuild (minutes vs. hours). This has been happening since v4.2a (March 2011). Since then a rebuild will only be triggered by a software change (see Indexing in http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_4.2a).

My paradigm would be that resources get automatically downloaded into the Library view, from which you could immediately hide it or index on demand. An even better option for huge collections would be downloading JUST the metadata of all resources into the Library, where you can sort, select multiple resources for downloading/ hiding/ indexing, etc.

There is always some baggage with base Library packages and I think the same holds for Perseus! But it is very personal and I do not think there is any advantage in what you propose given that Logos already allow us to hide resources and hopefully will make that function much easier. Overnight downloading and indexing is easy to automate and then you know the resources are ready for use. I could cheerfully hide 100+ resources but it is only the 70 Earliest NT Manuscripts that annoy with their presence in Bible drop-downs! If there was any performance hit I would have already hidden them.

toughski

I guess the key is to constantly manage your library (with each download), by tagging, creating collections, hiding resources. Then it will be quite doable.

BillS

"Hiding" books must be moved to the Library view and away from "Program Settings."

Makes much more sense. [Y] +1

Users must be allowed to select multiple resources at the same time and hide them

[Y] +1

Bob Pritchett

I appreciate the feedback, and we'll look at improving library management.

In the past we've had users hide books and then forget they hid them, then call customer service and want to know where they are, etc. Our experience was that hiding books just caused a lot of frustration, so we made it something that's more intentional -- especially since it removes the book from your hard drive and the index. We're reluctant to put that into the library, where it would be easy to do, and quite a bit more trouble to undo.

Why do you want to hide so many books? To unclutter the library view? To free up space? Speed indexing? Are you "permanently" hiding them -- what the current feature is really designed for -- or just getting them out of the way? Would you prefer an "archive" feature that was somehow less intense than hiding them? (Moves them out of searches but makes them available in an "Archive" collection in the Library?)

George Somsel

Why do you want to hide so many books? To unclutter the library view? To free up space? Speed indexing? Are you "permanently" hiding them -- what the current feature is really designed for -- or just getting them out of the way? Would you prefer an "archive" feature that was somehow less intense than hiding them? (Moves them out of searches but makes them available in an "Archive" collection in the Library?)

I don't know about others, but I hide books which I have received with others (usually in base packages) which I have no desire to own. I have kept some which really don't interest me very much, but I don't particularly dislike them enough to hide them. I may eventually find that I want something I previously thought I would never want (such as Oswald Chambers or In His Steps), but should that happen, I would check the list of "hidden" resources and "unhide" it. What is so difficult about that?

DMB

Archive would definitely be good.

Quite a few resources I have I definitely want but would like to keep them in a basement until needed.

Dave Hooton

Would you prefer an "archive" feature that was somehow less intense than hiding them? (Moves them out of searches but makes them available in an "Archive" collection in the Library?)

That misses the point of "hiding" that was given 2 years ago! They are resources I wouldn't use --> don't want to read, don't have content that would be useful in a Search or Clipping or Notes, etc. If I wanted just to exclude content from a Search I can do that easily enough.

Why do you want to hide so many books? To unclutter the library view? To free up space? Speed indexing?

There is some "baggage" in base Libraries and collections as explained above. "So many" is a reflection of what was purchased that I won't use!

We're reluctant to put that into the library, where it would be easy to do, and quite a bit more trouble to undo.

There have been many requests to make it easy to do over the last 2 years, especially as there is no feedback (in Library) after dropping a resource into the "Hide" bucket.. Having an option to "View" hidden resources in Library would be the best way to retain visibility of what is hidden e.g. showing Title, Type and Series would be easy to do as the information is still retained.

tom

I don't know about others, but I hide books which I have received with others (usually in base packages) which I have no desire to own.

Same here

JT (alabama24)

Am I the only one who feels that the current hiding should be called archiving, and hiding should be ... well hiding a book?

My COED dictionary in Logos says that an archive is:

▶ a complete record of the data in part or all of a computer system, stored on a less frequently used medium.

"Hiding" resources now is actually archiving our resource licenses if/until we need them at a later date. It is counterintuitive to take "hiding resources" to mean "delete from my computer." That is just not how the word is used anywhere else.

Personally I would love to have "hidden" resources which reside on my computer, are indexed, but when I view my library they are not visible by default. I think having a library which looks & functions similar to iTunes would be ideal. I know that some of this is there now, but a cleaner UI would be nice.

Dave Hooton

Why do you want to hide so many books? To unclutter the library view? To free up space? Speed indexing?

There is some "baggage" in base Libraries and collections as explained above. "So many" is a reflection of what was purchased that I won't use!

Just to clarify this:

c.68x Targumic Fragments (bibles)
70x Earliest NT Greek Manuscripts (bibles)
1 x LXX from L3/L2
2 x NA27 from L3/L2
8x Syriac & Latin bibles + lexicons
1x Spanish bible
6x duplicate/obsolete resources
2x old BHS versions
4 x L3 Guides

DMB

Well, Mr Hooton, it's become eminently obvious why our CP papyri, targums, syriac and latin don't seem to be getting any interest. Everyone's HIDING them!