Dear Bob Pritchett, may I have a moment of your time?

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 4:59 AM

Super Tramp:

Joshua Garcia:
Stuart Robertson:
Hi Bob, Thank you for your candid and open response. I appreciate your willingness to answer the questions posed and issues raised. Your comments seem to indicate that Logos resources are spread very thin. And this makes me wonder about the what the future might hold. Perhaps more focus and less scope would improve things?
You mean like cutting the Mac platform? That would really speed things up!

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Very unkind Joshua, very unkind.

I'm guessing Joshua is being a little sarcastic at an attempt to humor us. Stick out tongue I smiled. What he said brings the real issue to the forefront. Each one of us believes our needs and wants should be the first priority or only priority of Bob Pritchett & Team Logos. Meanwhile Logos has a huge and diverse customer base to service.

You read me like a book.

 

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 5:45 AM

Dear All: If I may be so bold: Logos Bible Software is not a ministry, it is not a Church, It is a Product, Produced by a Company.

That is not to say Logos the Company cannot take part in some Ministry or that it's people cannot do Ministry.

But what I Bought is a Product, pure and simple.

Example: How many of you have ever needed a new Refrigerator , went out and bought one, got it home and then freezer section would not cool or freeze.

Would you react the same way you are asking people to do here?

Would you make excuses for the manufacturer of the refrigerator while you just go without being able to freeze your food, would you go through all sorts of things to fix it yourself, adjust and readjust it?

Would you be willing to want until some unknown time when they might be able to fix it?

Would you make excuses for the company if they could not fix it?

Would you be willing to say: well, they have so much to do you know, so may refrigerator customers and so many models, there is no reason for me to be upset, most people do not try to use all the features anyway?

I don't think so.

You probably bought the refrigerator to use, now, to keep your milk cold, your meat frozen-now.

 

You can replace refrigerator with anything, car, bike, cell phone, clothes, your electric company.

It's only when we get to Biblesoftware that people act in this matter.

 

The last company I saw go through this, with customers acting in a codependent fashion of making excuses for the company, went under finally and had to be sold to others.

Logos Bible software is, Software, it is a product, created by a Company, as far as I can tell, a For Profit Company.

Certain amounts of grace can be given to any company/product. If the fridge/computer/cell phone etc is delivered defective- they can fix it, and all is fine.

But if they cannot fix it properly and in a rational about of time, then the company and it's product has failed.

I get rather sick on my insides to see otherwise rational Christians act as if a company is a ministry and therefore has an excuse for doing poorly.

And No: It's not I want my deal fixed, my bug being fixed is more important than someones else's bug being fixed.

It is simply wanting what is being sold to work as advertised, thats all.

Just like any other consumer/ product relationship.

Logos exists to make Money, thats it reason for existence .

If it quit making money, it would not come around and see you , minister to you, be there when you are sick.

Logos is a thing, not a person, it's a business, not a Church, it's a Product, not a Ministry.

Thanks 

Posts 524
Stuart Robertson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 5:47 AM

Graham Owen:
Seems to me that you can't give the user the ability to do a search of this size unless the system has the power to handle it!

I've just tried a search that returns a similarly sized result set in "the other Mac Bible program" (granted that I can't try morph searches as I installed the trial version) and the results appeared basically instantaneously and can be inspected without any lag in the UI. I regularly work on 20-30MB Word documents numbering over 300 pages, with no crashes or hangs. I have Freemind mind-maps with thousands of nodes and can navigate the mind map without any delay.

The issue here is not the system. I've spent 16 years developing software in everything from assembly, C, C++, C#, Java, and the last 2 years in Objective C & Cocoa can can honestly say that "the system" is more than capable.

Posts 76
Ryan Burns | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 6:21 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

I get rather sick on my insides to see otherwise rational Christians act as if a company is a ministry and therefore has an excuse for doing poorly.

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. I don't excuse them for doing poorly. Rather, I think they are doing a great job. I have things that I'd like to see fixed and that I'm not "happy" about. For me, I am troubled that reading plan sync is not working perfectly between Mac and iOS. However, Bob and other have explained that it is a known issue and will be resolved once Sync V2 (or whatever it is called) is released. So, sure, I want it fixed now, but the reality on a technical level is that fixing it now is a stupid idea. It is a bad business decision because you use twice (if not more) the man-hours to fix and then refix with v2. Plus you take programmers off other projects and those slow those down.

The reason I continue to support Logos is because I am rational (though taking the time to write the following forum rant about my rational decision to support a company may prove otherwise) . The reality is that every single issue that every user encounters on the multitude of devices simply can not all be fixed immediately. Further, if Logos waited until every program for every platform was free of all issues, they would NEVER ship ANYTHING. I support Logos because they have a proven track record of listening to their customers and resolving issues. The people, in my estimation, who are not being rational are those who encounter a bug or issue and expect it to be fixed immediately. That is simply an unrealistic expectation. A reasonable expectation is that it will take some time to fix issues that come up.

I have numerous product and companies that make products I use every day that fall into this category. Evernote has spacing and formatting issues in landscape mode on my iPad. Pages and Numbers don't sync via iCloud automagically on my Mac. My iPhone takes like an hour to update when I plug it into iTunes. I can't merge my apple id and my moblie me id. The water line in my refrigerator freezes some times. My Chevy requires me to turn the key twice for it to start. Bank of America online won't allow me to use bill-pay for individuals. My house thermostat can't be changed to trigger at the 1 degree increment. My printer doesn't work if I try to use it on any wireless network other than my own. I could go on and on... But, because I am rational, I don't expect that every problem that occurs should be fixed immediately, or maybe at all. Sure, I'll bring it up with the company if it really bothers me (I've taken my chevy in twice) but at the end of the day, I like these products and rationally chose to continue to support them because their sum total of usefulness in my life are not tied to the problems I encounter with them. My truck is amazing outside of the start issue. My iPhone is amazing. I'm sure Mac will eventually get iCloud figured out. And so on.

So, sure, if Logos isn't working for you in the ways you need it to and this is the largest sum total of its usefulness, then, yeah, it is irrational to support them. Call CS and return the product. However, the reason so many of us continue to support Logos and take time to write long post on the company forum is because we want the product. I want Logos. I use Logos. I want it on my mac, iphone, ipad and eventually my kindle fire. When I get my Fire and Logos isn't on there, I'm not going to freak out and call it quits or unload on the dev team on the forum. And if it is on there and glitches occur, then I'll report the bug and trust they will get fixed. If it doesn't, I'm not going to return Logos all together. That isn't rational. I will continue to support the company.

Alright, enough from me. I've spent an irrational amount of time on this post.

 

Helping people find seminary scholarships and church jobs.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 6:35 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
I get rather sick on my insides to see otherwise rational Christians act as if a company is a ministry and therefore has an excuse for doing poorly.

True. I also get sick on my insides to see otherwise rational Christians excuse a ministry for doing poorly because its "just a ministry" and not a business, but thats a topic for another thread.

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 8:24 AM

Stuart Robertson:
I've just tried a search that returns a similarly sized result set in "the other Mac Bible program" (granted that I can't try morph searches as I installed the trial version) and the results appeared basically instantaneously and can be inspected without any lag in the UI.

But that's not a Bible Word Study Guide, right? I'm pretty sure you'll find a search for "Lord" is nearly instantaneous in Logos, too. But our guides do things which to the best of my knowledge no other software does. Like grab every search result, get contextual or extra information, and then organize large cubes of data for multiple presentations.

Yes, I know it's slower than it can be, and we're working on that, but I do want you to understand that it's a lot more than a search.

Posts 524
Stuart Robertson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 8:39 AM

I fully agree it's not a Bible Word Study Guide - in any way, shape or form. My comment was simply intended to highlight the blindingly fast results display and good interactiveness while navigating through and exploring the results.

In my previous comments about Logos' features, rich powerful reports, etc I've tried (perhaps badly) to express the "delight" part of my relationship with Logos 4. It's precisely the power of Logos' guides (esp exegetical guide and word study guide) that make the current stability and performance issues so frustrating. When the results (which I cannot easily get using other software) are there, right before my eyes, and scrolling through them causes hangs and clicking on them causes crashes the frustration peaks. It's like creating delicious candies and putting them in front of a child, even offering them to the child, and then at the last moment having them disappear in a puff of smoke (or bits, in this case). Therein lies the frustration.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 11:14 AM

Good Grief Charlie Brown-smile.

Things get list in long threads.

I'm not looking for every bell and whistle, I am just looking for Program to do as advertised.

I just want it to load without crashing, operate without crashing.

Here's a novel idea, would like to prepare a Sermon without having to restart logos several times.

There is a difference between a car that it takes two try's to start and, one that will not get you to work.

I have. Ever thought it unreasonable to expect something to perform as advertised.

Its the nature of business transactions that there is an agreement to thee change of things based on certain values.

As far as I know Logos does not advertise this as broken software that crashes a lot.

I know they don't mean for it too, there is no malice intended by Logos and, none intended by me. 

The fact remains it is highly unstable for even simple tasks.

Thats what is not ok.

Posts 1514
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 11:18 AM

Bob Pritchett:

Stuart Robertson:
I've just tried a search that returns a similarly sized result set in "the other Mac Bible program" (granted that I can't try morph searches as I installed the trial version) and the results appeared basically instantaneously and can be inspected without any lag in the UI.

But that's not a Bible Word Study Guide, right? I'm pretty sure you'll find a search for "Lord" is nearly instantaneous in Logos, too. But our guides do things which to the best of my knowledge no other software does. Like grab every search result, get contextual or extra information, and then organize large cubes of data for multiple presentations.

Yes, I know it's slower than it can be, and we're working on that, but I do want you to understand that it's a lot more than a search.

 

If I did all this research without Logos help it would have taken me weeks (maybe months) - literally. In Logos it takes me 20-30 seconds to do a word study on "LORD". Now understand what I'm about to say does not excuse Logos in anyway. But even if Logos was to crash 15 times before I was able to get my results I still would have saved many weeks of time. Cool [BTW...it worked fine the first time I tried it.]

This is why I bought Logos - to save time in my studies. If I went back to "regular" books I wouldn't be able to do a quarter of what I can do now. Has Logos lived up to this expectation? Absolutely. So while I think Logos still requires some "tweaks", I do not think it has been a waste of money.

 

Posts 2790
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 11:26 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
The fact remains it is highly unstable for even simple tasks.
'

Let me suggest that while I am often one of the harsh critics of Logos (wow here I go again defending it) I have seldom had a crash while performing simple tasks. What do you define as simple. Let me give you a list of what I think are simple tasks with Logos.

1. Looking up a bible verse

2. Doing a simple search for a word

3. Opening a book

4. Looking through my library

I haven't had a crash doing any of these simple task even running the first version of betas in over a year. Sure it occasionally dumps on me doing some more advanced things. But as for simple tasks I would be that if we took a poll here, very few of the users would say that the app has crashed doing any of the above in quite some time.

Can you name me a simple task that it often crashes while doing?

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 11:44 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
As far as I know Logos does not advertise this as broken software that crashes a lot.

Most users do not share your experience. In the last few months, I have experienced very few crashes with the stable versions.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
The fact remains it is highly unstable for even simple tasks.

Again, this is not the experience of the majority of users.

Although I understand your frustration, you are overstating the case. You are making blanket statements that do not reflect the experience of most users.

Posts 1216
Matt Hamrick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 11:59 AM

[

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

As far as I know Logos does not advertise this as broken software that crashes a lot.

I know they don't mean for it too, there is no malice intended by Logos and, none intended by me. 

The fact remains it is highly unstable for even simple tasks.

Speak for yourself and yourself only. It is not a fact that it is unstable for even simple tasks. I have an occassional crash that I expect because I am a beta user. When I use stable I have no problems at all. I am still on an old computer with Windows XP. I still use Office 2003. Old school and no problems whatever. You are mistaken. I do not have any issues with the software.

Posts 524
Stuart Robertson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 12:01 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:

Let me give you a list of what I think are simple tasks with Logos.

1. Looking up a bible verse

2. Doing a simple search for a word

3. Opening a book

4. Looking through my library

I can look up a Bible verse, search for a word using any one of a number of free Mac or online (web-based) Bible applications. I didn't buy Logos for this.

I can open and read books (of which I have many hundred quality books in PDF format) and look through my Library (I use DEVONthink Pro).  I didn't buy Logos for this, either, at least not for the most part.

I bought Logos (the Scholar's Library bundle) primarily for the ability to study and search original language texts, do complex word studies. While attempting these tasks I run into a crash or 3, and a force-quit or two each day.

I bought Logos hoping to study the Bible, consolidate my Bible study notes and highlight the text as I read (I mark up my printed Bibles extensively). Yet the notes feature of Logos has been a massive disappointment (everything from really bad performance, inability to properly handle rich text in notes, formatting and hyperlinks in my notes getting messed up and/or lost when pasting additional content, notes being irrecoverably lost after an accidental click on the little delete X mark, etc).  The 15-second-to-highlight-a-single-word-while-maxing-out-CPU-at-100% bug has made highlighting and marking up my Bible impossible for almost a year.

I use the Word Study guide extensively and have it crash fairly regularly -- probably once every 8 to 10 times I use it.

Using any of the "advanced" tools results in Logos' memory usage climbing and climbing until eventually it either crashes or becomes slower and slower and eventually spinning pizzas announce it's time to force-quit.

So, yes, I grant you that for "simple tasks" Logos works okay, though scrolling is slow at times.  But for the things I bought Logos for it is, after more than a year of hoping, borderline at best.  Yes, even with crashes and restarts I can accomplish tasks (mostly), but it is certainly not what was advertised or what I expect from an expensive, commercial Mac app.

 

Posts 75
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 12:42 PM

I have been a very harsh critic of Logos 4 Mac over the past two years. I thought they managed the rollout poorly and communicated the state of their software incompletely. And if I'm honest, I was a bit put out that it took the development team ten months to get into a useable beta. 

But some of these criticisms for minor bugs are absolutely ludicrous. Some of the commenters on this thread are making it sound like the software doesn't work at all. In point of fact, it works quite well 99% of the time and the issues people are having are minor ones. As Bob pointed out, developing a platform like Logos 4 over several OS structures is a HERCULEAN effort, but if they didn't try, then people would complain about how limited Logos is.

Here's the truth. Logos 4 is, BY FAR, the most advanced, most comprehensive, most OS-inclusive Bible study platform ever thought of. Bible study software is a niche market. It is not like LBS is getting rounds of massive investments like Evernote or Facebook gets. 

The critics are thinking of Logos 4 as an extension of Logos Digital Library, but in reality, it is an entirely different platform. I can understand being frustrated by the flaws in the software, but don't forget that Logos is doing something that has never been done before on a scale that has never been considered before.

I still recommend Logos 4, even though I know it is quirky and buggy. I can't wait for it to be finished, but is a fully useable product now. I have no problems with it shutting down on me or jamming up. It runs perfectly on my MBP mid-2009, Dual Core with 8GB of RAM. I have no complaints. 

Posts 524
Stuart Robertson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 12:53 PM

Erik DiVietro:
I have no problems with it shutting down on me or jamming up. It runs perfectly on my MBP mid-2009, Dual Core with 8GB of RAM. I have no complaints. 

I'm really pleased for you. Some people (I'm one of them), however, are running into issues with hangs (requiring force-quits) and memory leaks (requiring reboots) and crashes occurring frequently enough to have lead to this whole series of posts. I truly have better things to do with my time than invent stories about Logos not functioning, create videos demonstrating the 15-second-to-highlight bug, etc etc.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 1:34 PM

Fot all whom it works well, I am so glad for you, it has not and is not for me.

I have done all one is supposed to do, again: Read the wiki's, watched all the videos from Logos and the English gentleman, many several times, set things up as recommended , called Logos support, screen shared, all is up to date, Mac is fine, plenty of Processor and Ram.

Turned off internet, all the speed and help tweaks.

Simple task: Click on Logos and have it open= Failed task.

Click on Logos and have it open+ opens in little windows, try to resize, crashes= failed task.

Get Logos open: Try to use interlinear=freezes after a few moments, wait, then working again, they to close , button will not work= Failed Task.

in this period, could have done much more work using books=failed simple tasks.

 

Not saying Logos is junk, not saying they do not have good ideas.

Am saying they did not advertise software with this many issues, bugs, faults etc.

Advertised properly working platform.

Have asked for help, nothing wrong with this, have asked for some things to be tended to in a timely way, nothing wrong with this.

Regularly recurring crashes is not ok?

Several years ago, there were a lot of rollover accidents that happened with one type of tire, from one manufacturer.

One of the defenses given was that: this does not happen to everyone, lots of people have really good performance with these tires, this, it is not the fault of the tires or manufacturer. Only a very, very small percentage of people are having issues with the tires, much less accidents.

In the end, they found there was indeed a problem with the manufacturing of the tires that caused them to fail at times when they should not.

It was not the vehicle owners fault the tires did not perform as they should. People paid for proper tires, they did not pay with faulty money.

The point is simply that there is something wrong, some peoples installs work decently well, some do not, some work well and the greatest and newest hardware, some do not.

So, I did not come here to argue with everyone, do not pay to do so.

I just wanted to help make the point, that is so often minimized here, that all of us pay for this product, thus we all have a right to a decently working product, All customers have a right to a decently working product that does what is advertised.

 

 

 

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 3:16 PM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Fot all whom it works well, I am so glad for you, it has not and is not for me.

I am truly sorry that it doesn't work well for you. I wish it did. I hope it will in the near future. And, I would hate for you to miss out on it.

Although I was able to reproduce the crash doing the test, it is an extremely rare experience for Logos to do anything worse than take a while booting or indexing. I blame that on my older hardware. I do not do extensive language studies in Logos. The word study and language resources are more than adequate for me.

I wish you well, however you choose to meet your study needs. I do believe Logos will keep getting better so don't completely write them off. And when you scratch your head in wonder while looking at all the happy Logos users, just be happy for us that our Logos is serving our needs well. I have enjoyed the dialogue. Smile

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 26 2011 6:19 PM

Dear ST: I do indeed rejoice that this is working well for you and anyone it is working well for- hate I suffer the sin of envy in it though-smile.

I enjoyed your interaction greatly. ( a Klein man myself, although I use EstWing Hammers, still have my Dads.)

Did not mean to upset anyone here, not a territorial issue for me.

Only desire is for product to "perform" better, nothing more.

Blessings all.

Posts 1955
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 12:13 PM

I have been using Logos for about ten years ago. About the time I bought Logos for Windows, most of the world had written off Apple Macs as either something that was about to die or just be consigned to a few eccentric, but proud graphic designers. (some of them were very good friends)

But oh how the world has changed. Apple made a resurgence, which ushered in not only a generation of people who want to use their computers more like maintenance free appliances, but also a range of portable devices and tablets. Windows also has made many changes since then. Additionally unthinkable amounts of consumer bandwidth at home and in portable connectivity now gives us the ability to work 'in the cloud' and leverage central processing power to augment your device's capabilities.

Logos is on the cutting edge in all of this and even in the last few years we have seen them dramatically grow to address these changes. Any software company who now doesn't embrace a portable and mutli-platform strategy is in danger of being left out, certainly at least in terms of some consumer applications.  Three years ago we had a paltry Logos Mac software package which did not even begin to compare to version 3 at the time. Now Logos has taken the bold goal of maintaining feature parity with both the windows and mac platforms, though Mac OSX users are still a minority. (I am now a fellow Mac user) We had waited so long for Logos for Mac 1.1, I really had decided that it was really never going to happen, but it's here and it seems with every release it gets better.

Not only this, they have also introduced software for iOS and Android. They have begun to leverage the cloud and I suspect they have a few other tricks up their sleeves in terms of leveraging processing power by blurring the lines between what your desktop does and their central servers. Just look at the dramatic increase of Logos services on the web. Anyone see a trend here? :)

The trend actually scares me a little because there are a number of us working in majority world nations which still struggle with just sending emails or posting messages like this one... and I have voiced several times on this forum that I hope we don't forget missionaries, humanitarian aid workers, church planters, Bible translators, pastors and the like who work in these places where connectivity is so limited. Logos is priceless to us. We can't hold the rest of the world back, but we hope that there is a small space for us in the Logos business strategy at least for now.

Anyhow, I think threads like this to highlight very specifically some of the limitations of Logos for Mac have got to be helpful for Bob and the development team. Particularly those of us who helped beta test the Logos for Mac software, it has been bumpy... but I think it is trending in the right direction and the more we document shortcomings in threads like this, the more battle hardened and mature the code will be.  In the meantime, Logos will continue to accumulate and gather expertise which will aid them in Logos 5. This sort of corporate memory and experience does not come overnight.  Let's just remember the 'blue screen' of death we used to endure with Windows 3.1.1, Windows 95, ME, etc. :)

Let's also remember the software is free. One of the things we can continue to do to help Logos achieve these goals is to buy more resources. I'm really hoping one of these days they run a killer sale on Anchor Bible... <grin> until then, I'm buying up plenty of the other prepubs and community pricing resources. I get stuff for a fairly inexpensive price and hopefully this helps their revenue stream.  AND... at some point in the future again if time allows, I will probably jump again into the fray of beta testing. I know Logos is a for profit company, but they have made a way for us users to grow with them. I have tonnes of books that I would not have otherwise because I have steadily invested in resources as they have grown and I have got to feel like my help on beta testing has made a small, albeit at times probably insignificant contribution. At least it made me feel good at the time. :)

Disclaimer: I have never met Bob nor have I been paid to say this. I'm also not a fanboy, though I am a loyal supporter while not overlooking and even at times being frustrated at the warts and wrinkles that we have gone through. I suggest it's all good and steady as she goes... it's going the right way... :)

 

 

Posts 2987
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 12:42 PM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

Dear All: If I may be so bold: Logos Bible Software is not a ministry, it is not a Church, It is a Product, Produced by a Company.

Logos is a thing, not a person, it's a business, not a Church, it's a Product, not a Ministry.

Thanks 

 

Hey Chuck,

I like their way of doing it better than your way of not doing, but rather criticizing, it.

Wink

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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