Newbie Search Question: Using Logos to Prove (or Disprove) a translation issue

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 29 2011 8:31 AM

Jack ... thank you for the WBC hit. I'm only curious about this due to I got a pile of Aramaic Bibles and they're great.

What's interesting about the WBC argument, is that the Targums were so certain of their reading, that the subsequent phrasing shifted along the lines of assigning YHWH's name/word (memra) to the idols. If you're familiar with the jewish concept of 'word' that would be just about as bad as one could ever get in offending YHWH.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 29 2011 9:09 AM

Denise Barnhart:

Usually I get the Targums out when the hebrew and Septuagent don't seem to explain why someone's getting excited.

The targumim must be used with caution.  They only indicate how a passage was understood at a particular time in a particular location and not necessarily what the correct understanding might be.  It could be that by the time the targum on a passage was written they had already lost the understanding of the passage.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 11214
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 29 2011 9:43 AM

Yep ... that's definitely true.

The reason I'm fascinated with the Targums, is that a lot of patterns in the Targums track the differentiating greek patterns in Matthew, John and Romans.

The recent Gorgias title by Wilson similarly noted the same patterns but in the syriac gospels.

I first became 'suspicious' that the greek syntactical patterns pointed to something odd was when the Byzantine by Robinson had considerably more structure than NA27 or WH (NA27 being largely random). I sent an email to Robinson and I was surprised he sent a short note back (a very kind gentleman).

But I'd bet, when the day's over, the aramaic will answer many a question of both the OT and NT.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 29712
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 29 2011 12:11 PM

George Somsel:
The targumim must be used with caution.

Which leads to the thorny broader question of how Christians should apply/ignore Jewish interpretative methods. When the "authority" spoke to the original poster with the message that the text was mistranslated, there is in my mind the assumption that he is speaking of translating the text itself. The support for his translation appears to come not from the original text but from early commentary. (All translation is commentary frame of mind showing here.)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 252
ROGER JIMENEZ | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 29 2011 11:30 PM

From Adam to the flood, man lives a degenerative process until idolatry. From this perspective Jewish commentators understand the term "huchal" (translated "Began") and can also be translated "profane" (ESL # 2490). Is the line of thought from the Targum, and Rashi and Ramban. God spoke face to face with Adam; Cain and Abel wanted to maintain a connection through their offerings, but the fact is that this connection will eventually be corrupted up to idolatry. In addition, we must remember that the name YHWH, had not been revealed yet (The Jerome Biblical Commentary).

So that the phrase "men began to call upon the name of the Lord" actually loses strength. It is in a vacuum in that context, without connection to the reality of the Judgement that was closely to come.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 29 2011 11:46 PM

ROGER JIMENEZ:

From Adam to the flood, man lives a degenerative process until idolatry. From this perspective Jewish commentators understand the term "huchal" (translated "Began") and can also be translated "profane" (ESL # 2490). Is the line of thought from the Targum, and Rashi and Ramban. God spoke face to face with Adam; Cain and Abel wanted to maintain a connection through their offerings, but the fact is that this connection will eventually be corrupted up to idolatry. In addition, we must remember that the name YHWH, had not been revealed yet (The Jerome Biblical Commentary).

So that the phrase "men began to call upon the name of the Lord" actually loses strength. It is in a vacuum in that context, without connection to the reality of the Judgement that was closely to come.

You need a better lexicon.

I

nif

pi

pu

hif

hof

: pf.
: pf.
: pt.
: pf.
(BL 434k, 436): pf.
חלל: MHb. pi., JArm. pa. to profane, JArm.t Sam. to be profane,? Pehl. Frahang 19, 2/3, JArm. Syr. and Mnd. (MdD 148b) to wash; Arb. ḥalla to untie (knot), to be allowed, IV to allow, Tigr. Wb. 52b ḥallala to cause to be allowed, incompetent; Akk. elēlu to be pure; basic meaning to untie (:: אזר), Palache 31f.נִחָֽל, נִחַלְתְּ, נִחֲלוּ, impf. יֵחָֽל, תֵּחֵל, וָאֵחַל, inf. הֵחֵל, הֵחַלּוֹ: to be commonly used, to be defiled: SirMIV18 תחל (בת), var. for תפותה 4210, מִקְדָּשׁ Ezk 724 253, שֵׁם אֱלֹהִים Ezk 209.14.22 Is 4811, God himself Ezk 2226, כֹּהֵן Lv 214, עִיר Ezk 2216, defile oneself (לִזְנוֹת) בַּת כֹּהֵן Lv 219. †חִלֵּל, חִלַּלְתּ, חִלֵּֽלוּ, חִלַּלְתֶּם, חִלְּלוֹ חִלְּלוּהָ, impf. יְחַלֵּל, יְחַלְּלוּ, יְחַלְּלֶנּוּ, וַתְּחַלְלֶהָ (Ex 2025, BL 220m) וַתְּחַלֶּלְנָה (BL 436), יְחַלְּלֻהוּ, inf. חַלֵּל, חַלְּלוֹ, pt. מְחַלֶּלֶת, מְחַלְלֶיהָ ( impf. sf.): —1. to profane: a) מִזְבֵּחַ (by using iron tools) Ex 2025, שַׁבָּת Ex 3114 Is 562.6 Ezk 2013.16.21.24 228 2338 Neh 1317f, קֹדֶשׁ י׳ Lv 198 229.15 Nu 1832 Ezk 2226 Zeph 34 Mal 112, מִקְדָּשׁ Lv 2112.23 Ezk 721 2339 2818 447 Mal 211 Ps 747 Da 1131, שֵׁם אֱלֹהִים Lv 1821 1912 203 216 222.32 Jr 3416 Ezk 2039 3620-23 Am 27, God himself Ezk 1319; a couch Gn 494 1C 51; the father Lv 219 the daughter 1929, a priest his family 2115; אֶרֶץ Jr 1618 Ezk 722, יִפְעָתֶֽךָ 287; בְּרִית Mal 210 Ps 5521 חֻקֹּת י׳ Ps 8932, מַמְלָכָה Lam 22; b) God himself profanes נַחֲלָתוֹ Is 476, מִקְדָּשׁוֹ Ezk 2421, בְּרִיתוֹ Ps 8935, נֵזֶר דָּוִד 8940, גְּאוֹן אָֽרֶץ Is 239, שָׂרֵי קֹדֶשׁ (?) 4328; c) חִלֵּל מִן to cast out (away from the mountain of God) Ezk 2816; —2. put into use (profane, חֹל): Dt 206 2830 Jr 315 (rd. יְחַלְּלוּ), Lv 1923-25. †מְחֻלָּל: profaned(שֵׁם י׳) Ezk 3623 cj. Is 535 for מְחֹלָל (II חלל). †הֵחֵל, הֵחֵ֫לָּה/לּוּ, הַחִלֹּ(וֹ)תָ (BL 436 :: Bergsträsser 2:1390d), impf. אַ/יַחֵל (BL 435n) and אָ/יָחֵל, וַיָּ֫חֶל, תָּחֵלּוּ, תְּחִלֶּינָה, inf. הָחֵל, הַחִלָּם, p 320 pt. מֵחֵל: —1. to allow to be profaned (שֵׁם קָדְשִׁי) Ezk 397; —2. (to untie, cf. Aram. šry, <) to begin: Gn 920 Nu 1711f Dt 224 169 Ezr 38 2C 2022 2927 cj. 2S 1814 (rd. אָחֵ֫לָּה); with inf. to Dt 225.31 Jos 37 1S 32 cj. Mi 613 (rd. הַחִלּוֹתִי); with לְ with inf. to Gn 61 108 116 4154 Nu 251 Dt 324 169 (alt. causative, to put the sickle to) Ju 1018 135.25 1622 2031.39f 1S 1435 2215 2K 1032 1537 Jr 2529 Jon 34 Est 613 923 Ezr 36 Neh 41 1C 110 2724 2C 31f 2917 317.10.21 343; Ju 1619 cj. וַיָּ֫חֶל לֵעָנוֹת began to grow weak, BH, :: Echter Bibel וַיַּ֫חַל (I חלה qal); הֵחֵל מִן to begin at Gn 4412 Jr 2529 Ezk 96; הֵחֵל :: כִּלָּה Gn 4412 1C 2724; הָחֵל וְכַלֵּה beginning and end, completely (GK 113h) 1S 312; —3. to render invalid: יַחֵל דְּבָרוֹ to break one’s word Nu 303 —Gn 810 וַיָּ֫חֶל III חיל: ? Hos 810, cj. וְיֶחְדְּלוּ alt. וְיָחִילוּ. †הוּחַל: to be begun Gn 426. †
And this forum needs better software.  The red text is supposed to be all together at the end of the entry.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 29712
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 12:00 AM

A bit of context

-------------------------------

http://ldolphin.org/no

ahdays.html

As The Days of Noah Were
Return of the Aliens?

by Chuck Missler
 ....
"Line of Seth?"

The early church viewed the B'nai Elohim as angels up through the late fourth century: Justin, Athenagoras, Cyprian, Eusebius, et al. (also Josephus, Philo, Judeaus, and the Apocrypha regard this view).

Celsus and Julian the Apostate exploited the older common belief to attack Christianity. Cyril of Alexandria, in his reply, repudiated the orthodox position. Julius Africanus (a contemporary of Origen) introduced the theory that the "sons of God" simply referred to the genealogical line of Seth, which was committed to preserving the true worship of God.

Seemingly more appealing, the "Sethite theory" prevailed into the Medieval Church, and many still hold this view.

This view, however, has several serious problems. There is no indication that the Sethites were distinguished for piety; they were not exempted from the charge of general wickedness which brought on the flood. In fact, Seth's son Enosh was the one who introduced apostasy to that world. This is masked by a mistranslation of Genesis 4:25, which should read:

"...then men began to profane the name of the Lord." (4) Furthermore, when the faithful marry the unfaithful, they do not give birth to unnatural offspring! And the "daughters of men" were not differentiated with regard to the Flood. All were lost. (5)

(Incidentally, the Nephilim didn't completely end with the flood. Genesis 6:4 mentions, "...and also after that..." We find the sons of Anak, the Anakim, later in the Old Testament.) (6)


----
4. Targum of Onkelos: "...desisted from praying in the name"; Targum of Jonathan: "surnamed their idols in the name..."' Kimchi, Rashi, and other ancient Jewish commentators agree. Jerome indicated that this was the opinion of many Jews of his day. Maimonides, Commentary on the Mishna (a constituent part of the Talmud), A.D. 1168, ascribes the origin of idolatry to the days of Enosh.

 

======================

Of course, there is the looming historical question. Should I trust a man who uses "ancient" to describe Medieval Rabbis?

David Kimhi (Hebrew: דוד קמחי‎, also Kimchi or Qimḥi) (1160–1235), also known by the Hebrew acronym as the RaDaK (רד"ק), was a medieval rabbi, biblical commentator, philosopher, and grammarian.

Shlomo Yitzhaki (Hebrew: רבי שלמה יצחקי‎) or Isaacides and better known by the acronym Rashi (Hebrew: רש"י‎, RAbbi SHlomo Itzhaki; February 22, 1040 – July 13, 1105), was a medieval French rabbi famed as the author of a comprehensive commentary on the Talmud, as well as a comprehensive commentary on the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 1:23 AM

MJ. Smith:
Targum of Onkelos: "...desisted from praying in the name";

Boy, did he ever muck up that one.  It actually reads "the sons of man began to 'quiver' in the name."  Quivering is a part of Jewish prayer.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 1:26 AM

MJ. Smith:
Return of the Aliens?

What's this — Coast to Coast?  Break out the tinfoil hats!

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 41
Preston Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 7:55 PM

Frank Fenby:
I wonder if we should build a wiki section on "exegetical methods using Logos functions." To some of us these are obvious, however there are many users of Logos who have never been introduced to exegetical methods. Other may have trouble bridging the gap between paper methods and computer methods. The word study videos and others have some exegetical methods buried in them. Exegetical method questions are often asked here in the forum. For instance "how do I list all of the persons referenced in a book of the Bible?". Is anyone trying to capture these gems?

Excellent suggestion! I hope someone acts on this. It is really needed.

Because of Calvary,
Preston

Posts 41
Preston Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 3 2011 9:26 AM

Curious. Just downloaded the new ISV and checked Genesis wherein it is translated thusly:

Seth also fathered a son, whom he named Enosh. At that time, profaning the name of the Lord began.” (Genesis 4:26, ISV) 

Go figure.

Because of Calvary,
Preston Davis 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 3 2011 9:40 AM

Preston Davis:

Curious. Just downloaded the new ISV and checked Genesis wherein it is translated thusly:

Seth also fathered a son, whom he named Enosh. At that time, profaning the name of the Lord began.” (Genesis 4:26, ISV) 

Go figure.

Because of Calvary,
Preston Davis 

Yeah, they really blew it.Tongue Tied

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 5 2011 7:57 AM

Preston Davis:

Curious. Just downloaded the new ISV and checked Genesis wherein it is translated thusly:

Seth also fathered a son, whom he named Enosh. At that time, profaning the name of the Lord began.” (Genesis 4:26, ISV) 

Go figure.

Because of Calvary,
Preston Davis 

Peace, Preston!                           And Always Joy in the Lord!                     *smile*

                              First, let me commend you on your diligence and your scholarly approach.  Also to the point of "consulting" with your Logos Forums Brothers and Sisters.

                             Second, I am grateful to study this particular pericope, since I've never really considered it before.

             Yes, "go figure"!           Indeed!              When I held my mouse on the footnote # 28 in the ISV translation, I noticed that they departed from the literal translation deliberately.

         So, I'm trying to figure out "why."              After researching it a bit, and during a text comparison with all my Bibles, I have lost just a wee bit of respect for the ISV, I think.        I was beginning to be a little "fond" of the ISV.

     Because I cannot figure why they made that translation in this verse.                 I've studied it the best I can in the Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament and the UBS Handbook on Genesis (as well have glanced at several other commentaries), and have come to conclude that the ISV could have done better here.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Psalm 78:4

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 11214
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 5 2011 8:48 AM

I agree Milford ... glad you did the screenshot. That note looks pretty 'cheap'. If 'literally', then why not 'literally'.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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