How Long Before Mac Developers Will be Allowed to Catch Up to Windows version?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 5:42 PM

MJD:
there is no correlation.

The correlation is you have a $25,000 relationship with Logos. That is a significant connection. Why would you allow your dispute with your "significant other" (Logos) spill out into a public venue where you demand the CEO give you an account of his decisions?

MJD:
You were the one who spoke about the lack thereof.  Don't you get it, nobody claimed a lack of ability except you! 

Bob said there is a lack of qualified applicants. I say the 22 Logos users (out of 750,000) who think they could do a better job than Bob Pritchett, have so far done nothing in the way of re-imagining Bible study. A handful of our MVPs have done a lot more for Logos 4 than all the critics combined. Mark Barnes created a bibliography tool and many videos. MJ Smith has created many reading lists, collected lists of creeds and confessions, and encouraged mind mapping. Virtually all of Dave Hooton's posts are helpful answers to technical questions. Todd Philips, formerly with NASA, is great with technical issues as well as familiarity with commentaries. Kevin Becker, Rosie, KS4J, and several more who know resource content, write wiki entries, and give quick help to newbies when no one else is available.

It really does not matter if everyone on these forums is more mega-talented than Bob if they are not actually doing something with it. If they are not willing to move to Bellingham and join the Mac development team, they classify themselves as "unqualified." The positions advertised say nothing of armchair quarterbacking.

MJD:
This was an open forum comment -- in order to allow MANY PEOPLE to see the dialogue.

Hopefully some of the many qualified programmers will read it and submit their applications.

 

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MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 5:58 PM

Super Tramp:

MJD:
there is no correlation.

The correlation is you have a $25,000 relationship with Logos. That is a significant connection. Why would you allow your dispute with your "significant other" (Logos) spill out into a public venue where you demand the CEO give you an account of his decisions?

I don't have a dispute with Logos... what is wrong with you?   I am concerned because I saw a comment from a very recently departed Logos employee.  The comment concerned me... Why would he voice his concern over the forum?  Is there something I am unaware of?  Yes, I do have a large investment into Logos, and I want it function at the highest level.

You missed the boat, in your earlier post you made reference to nobody has the ability to run Logos better than Bob.  My objection was to your comment, you don't know who has what abilities on this forum.  "My dad is bigger than your dad" mentality" gets us no where.

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Thinking | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 6:34 PM

Bob Prichard said it is harder to program the Mac than Windows. Since I am not a programmer I have no way to know about what the difficulties are.

But I wonder if it is harder because:

1. Mac users demand that programs be done right (the Mac way)

2. The underpinning of Logos is an orphan program that tries to enable Windows-type programming run on the Mac and makes the Mac program sluggish and has much more limited programming tools.

Is a straight Mac program, unencumbered with Windows mindset and code, truly more difficult to write than a straight Windows program. Or is it easier to produce junk on a Windows machine than it is on the Mac.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 7:00 PM

MJD:
You missed the boat, in your earlier post you made reference to nobody has the ability to run Logos better than Bob.  My objection was to your comment, you don't know who has what abilities on this forum. 

King Solomon was faced with the task of determining who the real mother was in 1 Kings 3:16-28 . It was easy to see who really cared because of the love for the baby shown by the real mother. Logos is Bob Pritchett's "baby." He cares more for, and will do more for the best interests of Logos than anyone else. Your investment and my 8000 books combined will not generate the love and dedication to Logos like the investment Bob has made. I do believe there is no one better suited to run Logos. And if you believe all the trade journals and honors awarded Logos by the business community, they think so too.

MJD:
I am concerned because I saw a comment from a very recently departed Logos employee.  The comment concerned me... Why would he voice his concern over the forum?  Is there something I am unaware of?

There is a lot, busloads, of information you are unaware of. There is no benefit derived from including someone in the details when they have no way to effect the outcome. It is all run on a "need-to-know" basis.

MJD:
I don't have a dispute with Logos... what is wrong with you?

Oh, your dispute is just with Bob? It makes me wonder how demanding you get with the other Bible software companies you don't "love."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 7:07 PM

Phil Mills:
Or is it easier to produce junk on a Windows machine than it is on the Mac.

I doubt that is the case or we would not see the #1 demand from the Mac users is to have parity with Logos 4 Windows. The fact the Windows version looks better to the Mac users says it is not junk.

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J.P. Poveda | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 7:32 PM

MJD, do us all a favor and stop responding to Super Tramp... He's not terribly helpful in this thread (Super Tramp, I'm not making a general assessment about you - just as it pertains to this thread).

Joe Miller, sorry to hear you're no longer with Logos. I was looking forward to working with you in January. Bob, thanks for your thoughtful response.

MJD, I think you raise a valid question. Given the feature disparity and the lack of availability of Mac developers, it seems odd to start working on Proclaim.

If I had to guess, which is what we all are doing, unless you have a Logos badge, and this doesn't seem to include you Super Tramp... I'd guess that Logos decided to start working on Proclaim because they see a nacent (for them at least) market segment that they can generate additional revenue from as they build out the Logos echo system. Being that Logos seems to have a lead as it pertains to bible software on the Mac platform, they probably calculated that they could afford some delays in parity between Windows and Mac, which allows them to develop this new revenue stream (Proclaim), at the temporary cost of pulling Mac developers off the bible software.

If that's the case, I don't fault them for it. It's a bit annoying... but I get the business decision.

Bob P., you're a class act. I appreciate you taking the time to thoughtfully respond to some of our concerns and questions. Some of us are frustrated about the Mac platform - but it's still a radically valuable product for our ministries. Keep up the good work and hopefully revenue objectives will soon line up with feature parity on the Mac platform ;). Just so you know, I didn't consider switching to the Mac an option until you released Logos for the Mac... Logos was a necessary, but not a sufficient condition for me to switch from Windows to the Mac. I still use both platforms, but I'd say I'm now 90% Mac.

Blessings - jp

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 7:39 PM

Sorry ST, but having a star under your name holds you to a higher standard than others posting in the forum, as Logos has asked you t o represent the company. In my very humble opinion, you failed to take opportunity to say no more when you should have. People have frustrations that perhaps you cannot fix. This appears to be one of them and you do not appear to be helping the matter by continuing your line of discussion. Please find someone on the forums you can help with a problem that you may be able to fix.

I think you and the the other MVPs do a great job helping those requesting help on the forum. However, there are times when you cannot answer questions that require an answer from Logos employees.  At those times please use discernment to not make frustrations worse. Often times it is wise to say nothing and let it go.

This is not personal or intended to be an attack on you in anyway. I am just offering constructive advise.

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MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 7:49 PM

J.P. Poveda:

MJD, do us all a favor and stop responding to Super Tramp... He's not terribly helpful in this thread (Super Tramp, I'm not making a general assessment about you - just as it pertains to this thread).

Joe Miller, sorry to hear you're no longer with Logos. I was looking forward to working with you in January. Bob, thanks for your thoughtful response.

MJD, I think you raise a valid question. Given the feature disparity and the lack of availability of Mac developers, it seems odd to start working on Proclaim.

If I had to guess, which is what we all are doing, unless you have a Logos badge, and this doesn't seem to include you Super Tramp... I'd guess that Logos decided to start working on Proclaim because they see a nacent (for them at least) market segment that they can generate additional revenue from as they build out the Logos echo system. Being that Logos seems to have a lead as it pertains to bible software on the Mac platform, they probably calculated that they could afford some delays in parity between Windows and Mac, which allows them to develop this new revenue stream (Proclaim), at the temporary cost of pulling Mac developers off the bible software.

If that's the case, I don't fault them for it. It's a bit annoying... but I get the business decision.

Bob P., you're a class act. I appreciate you taking the time to thoughtfully respond to some of our concerns and questions. Some of us are frustrated about the Mac platform - but it's still a radically valuable product for our ministries. Keep up the good work and hopefully revenue objectives will soon line up with feature parity on the Mac platform ;). Just so you know, I didn't consider switching to the Mac an option until you released Logos for the Mac... Logos was a necessary, but not a sufficient condition for me to switch from Windows to the Mac. I still use both platforms, but I'd say I'm now 90% Mac.

Blessings - jp

JP:

I agree with you... I will stop responding to Super Tramp, because he is illogical in this thread, and tends to beat the "I love Logos" drum senselessly. (I love them too)

I hear Bob repeatably say how difficult it is to hire Mac Developers but yet he was able to find and allocate Mac Developers to Proclaim.

This is why I am frustrated!

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 8:55 PM

John Fidel:
This is not personal or intended to be an attack on you in anyway. I am just offering constructive advise.

John Fidel:
However, there are times when you cannot answer questions that require an answer from Logos employees.

This question does not "REQUIRE" an answer.  When MJD or you or any critic shows me your stock in Logos, then I would agree you can demand an answer from the CEO concerning his business decisions. Or for that matter, the reasons people part ways from Logos.

Every time somebody we like separates from Logos, a bunch of people demand to know why and call for a reinstatement, as if the dearly departed wants to stick around. (I won't list names because it would resurrect all the second guessing and accusations all over again.) 

This isn't about me at all. But if you will give Joe Miller (A former MVP and, up to recently, a Logos employee) a standing in expressing his personal views in the forums, I think it would be more fair-minded of you not to show me the door. My views are those of an individual who has also made a large investment in Logos' future.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 9:08 PM

Music   "The Logical Song" by Supertramp   Music

When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful, a miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.
And all the birds in the trees, well they'd be singing so happily, oh joyfully, oh playfully watching me.
But then they sent me away to teach me how to be sensible, logical, oh responsible, practical.
And then they showed me a world where I could be so dependable, oh clinical, oh intellectual, cynical.

There are times when all the world's asleep, the questions run too deep for such a simple man.
Won't you please, please tell me what we've learned I know it sounds absurd but please tell me who I am
I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical, criminal.
Won't you sign up your name, we'd like to feel you're acceptable, respectable, oh presentable, a vegetable!
Oh Take it take it yeah! .......         Who knows who's so logical.

If logical is to tear down those you love in public, then it is the last thing I want to be. If a husband discovers his wife is not a perfect person he would help her more by not demeaning her in public. There are a lot of marriage counseling books in the Pastor Appreciation Month specials that say the same thing. The specials expire Friday, November 4th.

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 9:25 PM

Just a quick post :

1. Not sure "how" one can say Logos is leading the way in Mac Biblesoftware. There are other companies, been doing Mac longer, and have very, very few problems with base code, if they were on mac earlier, one could make a case for them leading.

2. Reviews in the Mac side of things do not show Logos to be leading "other than" they have all the resources, they do some things different, had some reports before others, others had some reports before them. To be called leading, someone has to be following, not sure it is a race, but more of people making products, to do certain things, in ways they think people will buy.

3. Logos is getting better in Mac area. started off rough, is better, but still rough.

4. Suggestion is to get software stable across platforms and specs it is stated to run well on, then, and only then, start working towards feature parity. ( if the truck does not run well, do not load extra weight in it and give it a longer, steeper hill to pull the load up).

5. One of the reasons I mentioned Logos as a "company" ( In another thread, caught flack-smile), not a ministry/non-profit is because Logos used wise "for profit company" decisions early on to go out and try to tie up as many resources as possible. With a well accepted platform ( windows) and many resources, they sold well, which then made them a primary sales resource for publishers. This was just good marketing strategy ( like the app store for the iPhone was, people learned to write apps for where the buyers were). This marketing strategy also slowed down competitors in the market, many of who had just as capable software, but were out marketed.

My point is there is a difference in "software" and "Marketing" but success is often dependent on both, especially in the consumer area's.

6. The above is why I was trying to approach my examples from the perspective of business, value, and responsibility. No where else in business do I find as many people that are willing to make excuses for products that do not perform as expected as I do in the field of "Biblesoftware", no matter if it is Logos, Bibleworks, Biblesoft, Accordance or whoever.

For the most part, it is a strange sociological sub-set, probably based in the fact the software becomes "personal". You also see this in the Mac world to some extent, in the Windows world to some extent, but never in the Air Conditioning world by the consumer, not in the Refrigerator, not in tires, not in socks, not in restaurants , roofing etc.

Thus, no matter what is said here, no matter how it is said, it is going to be personalized because the comments are taken personally, because the product has become personal for many of us, we even say things like: I love Logos, it is so helpful. ( never hear people exclaiming the greatness of socks with holes in them-smile)

Logos, or Bibleworks, or Accordance etc. are products, made by companies, just like Mac's, Hp's etc. They cannot love us, they are products, pure and simple, we do best to see them that way. They are made by people who can and do "love" their work, designs and art forms , vocations, but these things are just that, things, products, devices.

I for one, am not married to any of them. I was a "windows guy" until it no longer "served me" well, then I changed to Macs and, if and when they no longer "serve me" well, I will move to whatever tool is available that will serve my needs, thats what they are for, to serve my needs, nothing more.

I will give logos some time to see if they can fix the issues so that this "product" is capable of "serving my needs". I have need of many of the resources ( titles) Logos has the rights too. I don't need most of the fancy guides Logos has, can get that work done with ease on just about any platform available, can do much of it pretty quickly by hand. ( Yep, still know how to use my regular library tools), what I need is heavily searchable availability to the library resources that are tied to Logos.I need to be able to find things in books that are reference books for me. If I cannot get that, then it is nothing personal, has nothing to do with the character of Bob ( seems like a really nice guy by the way) it simply has to do with a product that does not meet my needs. ( I am not mad at Chevy because I own a Ford, the Ford fit my needs better, next time, it might be Chevy)

A lot of the discussions here have gotten "tense" ( including my own-my apologies ) because we/I forget this is just simply a product, it either works or it does not, people are getting value, or they are not, it's a highly subjective subject and I need to understand some are having it great, and that's value to them. By the same token, some are not, we need to understand they feel shorted.

But it's just a product folks, just a product.

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David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 9:35 PM

MJD:
he was able to find and allocate Mac Developers to Proclaim.

It is *probably* not the best time for me to jump in, but I do feel compelled to correct a small factual error.

I've been working at Logos longer than we've had a Mac team. In fact, there was a time when I was the Mac team. During this time, we have been able to find and hire exactly one qualified candidate with prior professional Mac experience (he's on the Logos 4 team).

There has been no great exodus of Mac developers from Logos 4 to Proclaim. In fact, there's only one Mac developer on the Proclaim team who ever worked on the Mac version of Logos 4. All the others have picked it up as they've gone along—and they've done a splendid job.

There are even members of the Logos 4 team who are making the switch from Windows to Mac. However, making this sort of change—whether it's from Windows to Mac or from Proclaim to Logos 4—takes time, both for the developer making the switch and for the more experienced developers who must help him or her get up to speed on the new platform.

So while we are working to address the deficiencies of the Mac product, it will take time for some of these issues to get sorted out. It won't all be fixed tomorrow—and it may not be completely better next week, either. Smile

David Mitchell
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Faithlife

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 9:39 PM

Nice post David, well done imho.

Honest, I like that.

Rusty+

 

P.S. ( Week after next will be fine-smile)

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 9:42 PM

Ok ST,

I apologize for making any suggestion.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 10:19 PM

John Fidel:
I apologize for making any suggestion.

no apology needed

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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J.P. Poveda | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 10:28 PM

David Mitchell:
There has been no great exodus of Mac developers from Logos 4 to Proclaim. In fact, there's only one Mac developer on the Proclaim team who ever worked on the Mac version of Logos 4. All the others have picked it up as they've gone along—and they've done a splendid job.

That's reassuring. Thanks for the insight.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 10:56 PM

David Mitchell:
There has been no great exodus of Mac developers from Logos 4 to Proclaim. In fact, there's only one Mac developer on the Proclaim team who ever worked on the Mac version of Logos 4. All the others have picked it up as they've gone along—and they've done a splendid job.

I feel a little vindicated for trusting Bob to make the right decisions.

David Mitchell:
There are even members of the Logos 4 team who are making the switch from Windows to Mac

I will not second guess the wisdom of this move either. Big Smile

I rest my case.

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J.P. Poveda | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 12:10 AM

Super Tramp:
I rest my case.

ST... I guess that's what I find a bit off-putting about your "contribution" to this  thread. I take it that they didn't give you a star as an encouragement to be confrontational. I take it that your role as a "starred" member of these forums is to contribute positively towards shaping user experiences and to winsomely represent Logos as an enduser. You're not here to pick fights, to win "cases", or to generally annoy an already frustrated sub-group of users. Frankly, you've taken a tolerably frustrating situation and made it down right annoying. If you weren't a starred/MVP user, I'd just take you to be a forums troll or irrational zealot, which would make it fairly easy to ignore you; however, since you are starred, there's a bit of an implied endorsement on the part of Logos... that's extra frustrating. Why don't you let the Logos badged people represent Logos... they do a much better job.

Well, regardless, congratulations for whatever case it is that you just rested...

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 2:42 AM

J.P. Poveda:
Why don't you let the Logos badged people represent Logos... they do a much better job.

I do not represent any official Logos position. If there were no difference between the star and the blue Logos logo, there would be no need for the distinctions.

J.P. Poveda:
however, since you are starred, there's a bit of an implied endorsement on the part of Logos... that's extra frustrating.

So MJD was frustrated with Bob Pritchett's decision to go ahead with the development of Proclaim, based on erroneous assumptions. And you are frustrated with Bob Pritchett's choice not to muzzle the likes of myself & MJD? (In case you are unaware, Bob dislikes censorship of the forum.) And will you next be calling Bob out to account for his choice of how to run his own forum?

Bob has been gracious to most of us who stand on our soapboxes. I am sure several MVPs have caused Logos distress over one issue or another. But in my post above  where I cautioned against mistreating someone you love, it was not in reference to Logos the company. I was talking about a real human being that was being disrespected with demands to give an account for what was claimed to be an apparently foolish or selfish decision to develop Proclaim. If you want to be numbered among those who approve of that conduct, that is your choice. But I would defend your mother too, if someone were criticizing her cooking loudly in the grocery store.

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Thinking | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 2 2011 2:59 AM

Tramp, Please read the original post. The issue addressed is the difficulty in programming that Bob brought up. There was nothing in the post to say that Logos was junk (that was not even in my mind). But there is a lot of junk software on Windows. Of course, there is some great Windows programming. Furthermore, there is junk software on the Mac.

If you do not program native programs on both platforms I do not care about your uniformed opinion. My question is really for my own information and addressed to people that know how to create native programs on both platforms: is it really harder to program a native Mac program than a native Windows program? Or is the difficulty Logos is having because the Mac program basis is Mono and this provides only limited resources?

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