Bug: Crash again on startup

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Posts 1955
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Dec 4 2011 1:04 AM

Got up this morning. Macbook had been in sleep mode. Looked at a few things with my internet browser and then started Logos. It crashed before the opening screen. I have attached my logs. I suspect that it may be related to the crash that I reported yesterday, but just in case here they are anyhow. I will be posting bug reports for every one of my crashes from here on out until things improve.... kind of reminds me of the Alpha testing days! Smile

347037.Archive.zip

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 4 2011 4:50 AM

Suspect crashing Logos 4.5 Beta with logs posted in Mac Beta forum may be more helpful for Logos development improvement, hoping for stable Logos 4.5 release later this month so mobile apps can be concurrently updated with Sync V2 framework.

Wiki has => Logos 4 Beta Program

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1955
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 4 2011 6:17 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Suspect crashing Logos 4.5 Beta with logs posted in Mac Beta forum may be more helpful for Logos development improvement, hoping for stable Logos 4.5 release later this month so mobile apps can be concurrently updated with Sync V2 framework.

** Warning Rant Subroutine Activated **

[Rant]

As an MVP if you are communicating company thinking or a policy, this frustrates me. I'm using Logos for real live work and research.  As Fr. Charles said this is not a toy. I can't run the Beta because I don't have access to high speed internet to download updates... plus they recommend only running betas 'only on a dedicated testing machine' (the emphasis on 'only' is theirs).   I have chosen to not use the beta for this reason. I can't accept the risks and it is not practical, so I am sticking to full releases of software which should get priority in fixing.

So if the implication here is that the real attention is going to the beta rather than the production version of their software, I then have an issue.  Personally, I don't care if there are a thousand new features if this is the kind of performance we can expect in the next full release. Full release software should 'rarely', if ever crash. Yet it is a daily occurrence. It should never, ever mysteriously lose or corrupt data. This is not acceptable in this day in age of software, even on Windows but particularly Macs!

Further, I participated in the alpha phase of the development of this software, but I refuse to accept this level of quality in full release. This is not alpha or beta software. My computer is well within suggested specs. Nothing else on my macbook ever crashes. So should I lower my standards? Honestly, this type of reliability takes me back to the Windows ME days.

The Mac initiative at Logos did not launch yesterday and this is not just a few teething problems with Logos 4.0  Logos 4.0 has been in full release for a year. I think SR 4 was pretty good, but even over this last year we have struggled and patiently awaited for a day when this is all behind us. I genuinely don't have time to be posting crash logs and reports, but in a measure of goodwill I have been doing so because to just keep ignoring them and then complaining isn't going to help anyone.  I am trying to help, but at what point am I moving beyond the realm of being a customer and becoming a pseudo employee tester for the company?

This isn't aimed at you, but rather I am frustrated. I have been through thick and thin with Logos over the past 10+ years, so I know my footing as a customer is secure enough to assert that this is not good enough. This has cost me time and I don't accept this. I also know it will probably pass and just maybe another year of pain we will finally have this behind us. Of course I said that last year! Wink

[/Rant]

Grace and peace. God is good all the time! Smile

 

 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 4 2011 9:16 PM

Donovan R. Palmer:
As an MVP if you are communicating company thinking or a policy, this frustrates me.

Apologies: as a Logos user with Many Volunteer Posts (MVP), only sharing an idea.  Apologies for activating rant subroutine: understand and appreciate anguish. Embarrassed

 

Thankful for Logos 4 Mac option to run Stable and Beta on same computer using different accounts; personally have Beta application installed in my beta user's documents folder.  Likewise used wiki => Quick Installation onto Multiple Macs to quickly copy; in fact, modified home directory permissions so one Mac user could scan another user's Logos 4 folder, which allows resources to be downloaded once, then copied for use in other installation (with Use Internet set to No).

Am aware Logos makes more code changes in Beta than Stable, with Stable service releases tending to fix egregious crash issues, enough for hours of daily use by many.  Currently, Logos 4.3 SR-6 is a bit crash prone on OS X Lion (10.7.2 is Apple's 3rd public release this year; 10.7.3 already seeded to developers).

 

From reading lots of forum threads, know many Logos users are passionately looking forward to highlight and note sync between Logos 4 and mobile apps that consistently works within a few minutes all the time.  Sync v2 framework is a current high priority in development for all Logos apps.  Logos 4.5 combines highlighting and notes, part of Sync v2.  On 26 Oct 2011, Logos mobile developer posted => Reading plan sync status that includes:

Dave Dunkin:
We are aiming to use Sync v2 for reading plans by the end of the year.

My speculation is Logos desires to ship stable version of Logos 4.5 soon, ideally later this month.  Hoping Logos 4.5 on Mac improves OS X Lion usability along with Sync v2 and many feature parity improvements that includes fixes for old Bugs (one has languished over 7 months).  As a user, have no idea if Logos is planning more 4.3 service release(s).

 

Doing an internet search for "release early often" finds millions of results.  Web browser development is implementing RERO (Release Early, Release Often); Mozilla Firefox is now version 8 (released on 8 Nov 2011) while version 5 was released on 21 Jun 2011 (only 5 months ago so version changing every ~7 weeks).  A blog contrasts Apple's different approach to RERO => http://blog.mugunthkumar.com/articles/software-philosophy-release-early-release-often-vs-polished-releases/ (caveat: several Apple releases have needed polishing after public use, initial releases typically work for Apple stuff while backward compatibility may be lacking for other applications).  Personally learning some applications crash a lot on OS X Lion, found a different forum discussion => http://forums.adobe.com/thread/882468 that has similar angst.  Also, Safari 5 update lacks backward compatibility with Safari 4 so older Logos for Mac v1 essentially became an eBook reader.  In contrast, Microsoft has an option for older javascript rendering so Libronix 3.0g is still usable with Internet Explorer 9.

Donovan R. Palmer:
Grace and peace. God is good all the time! Smile

Amen.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 4 2011 10:12 PM

Dear Smiling: I keep hearing on this forum about how bad Osx Lion is:Not so in real life.

Having NO ISSUES here with Lion being compatible with any programs other than Logos. Might add I have some old programs I was worried about-they run perfectly.

That said, when Lion came out, there were indeed several software companies that I know of which stated they were not up to speed at that time, All those that I knew of quickly updated.

Lion is not "new" anymore, it ships as standard with all new Macs.

Most threads on this forum recommend people but the quickest and best Mac they can afford with most ram and, ssd drives- all of which ship with Lion.

If logos does not run well with Lion then the recommendation needs to be: But older macs without Lion or, downgrade new one to old operating system.

My point is not to be ugly, it's that there is a very real disconnect here that is based in people/us/them trying to make excuses for Logos when the truth of there matter is: They are failing to : Get stable, get Current.

There is ( imho ) way to much emphasis on getting feature parity with a windows program that many ( if not most ) Mac owners know nothing about and, really does not matter.

Feature parity means absolutely nothing to me if the program will not function properly under current hardware/Operating system specifications. 

Please forgive me posting in this thread, in this manner, but It just drives me nuts to see over and over this thought process that we Mac owners, that lay out good money, are some how at fault for the program not running on our systems.

We are supposed to get a stable, functional, reliable program that does as advertised in exchange for our stable, functional, reliable purchase dollars.

Again, just my opinion.

I hope I have not offended anyone, especially you Donovan.

Smiling, I pray you know I appreciate all your efforts.

Posts 1955
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 4 2011 10:24 PM

I am well aware of RERO. Firefox and even one 'public beta' software package that I have used have never crashed a minute fraction of Logos. I use MS Office same thing.

Bottomline, what is software for? It's a tool to do work. If the tool starts to become work itself, you have to step back and find the big picture. In the 80s when we tinkered a lot, we accepted this more readily. However, there is another phenomena from that era of computer users who just want their computer to work.

Anyhow, I still love Logos. I'll continue post some crash logs and await future releases. Thanks for a well thought out response.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 4 2011 11:39 PM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Dear Smiling: I keep hearing on this forum about how bad Osx Lion is:Not so in real life.

OS X Lion typically works; Mission Control is better than Spaces.  Several Logos 4 Mac forum threads have anguishing crashes on OS X Lion.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

If logos does not run well with Lion then the recommendation needs to be: But older macs without Lion or, downgrade new one to old operating system.

My point is not to be ugly, it's that there is a very real disconnect here that is based in people/us/them trying to make excuses for Logos when the truth of there matter is: They are failing to : Get stable, get Current.

Now pondering if Logos 4 Mac crashes on OS X Lion have more in common than the operating system version.  Apologies, should have considered hardware commonality earlier. Embarrassed  Thanks for pointing out disconnect.

After reading some threads in Apple support communities, wondering if NVidia graphics that share main memory has OS X Lion opportunity for memory collisions and crashes. If Mac has two graphics processors, potential workaround is switching to graphics processor with dedicated graphics memory.

If older shared memory graphics is crashing Logos 4 Mac on OS X Lion, wonder about changing color depth ? (e.g. thousands vis millions) Curious if color change affects Logos 4 Mac crashing ?

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

We are supposed to get a stable, functional, reliable program that does as advertised in exchange for our stable, functional, reliable purchase dollars.

Yes

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Smiling, I pray you know I appreciate all your efforts.

Prayer was helpful; Thanks Geeked

Keep Smiling Smile

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Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 4 2011 11:47 PM

Donovan R. Palmer:

However, there is another phenomena from that era of computer users who just want their computer to work.

Anyhow, I still love Logos.  I'll continue post some crash logs and await future releases.

Likewise love Logos: software, company, and especially the Original.  Also looking forward to future releases and resources.

Passionately concur with desire for Logos Bible Software to reliably work (on many platforms).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 4264
LogosEmployee
Kevin Byford (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2011 4:53 PM

Just wanted to let you know that we've referred the threads that you have recently created to our Technical Support Department for further assistance.  They should be following up with you personally.

Posts 524
Stuart Robertson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2011 5:44 PM

I have run into numerous crashes (10+) today, mostly while I was working offline, but two crashes this evening while working online. The instability, performance issues and longstanding, ~12 month-old, bugs have resulted in what I can only describe as weariness. I now think twice before launching Logos, expecting it to either start up in a tiny squashed window in the bottom left corner, or crash (luckily second startup is invariably successful and takes less than the minute or so required to launch the first time). Other Mac apps are a delight to work with (I'm thinking of Scrivener and DEVONthink Pro in particular), but daily frustrations with Logos have brought a sense of loathing to it as it will hang or crash usually precisely when I'm in the middle of a study. For example, for whatever reason the parallel resource button has brought on numerous crashes (5 so far today). These crashes occur when I'm right in the middle of a study and want to consult a parallel resource. Then boom! Logos is gone. Restart, regather thoughts, reopen resources, navigate to the right place, run a search or two, spinning pizza, memory usage climbs sharply, them boom! Logos is gone again. Increment weariness counter. Restart Logos, etc.

What's truly frustrating is then to hear "Well, it works for me!" and "We cannot reproduce the problem". Today's spate of crashes has me wondering why I continue to even launch Logos for Mac at all.

I have checked my file system for errors, run a system test on installed RAM (left running overnight), reinstalled Logos twice. But the problems continue (to say nothing of long-standing "minor" irritations like keyboard shortcuts targeting the wrong windows due to focus issues, etc).

What is the difference between those for whom Logos simply "works" and who don't run into constant crashes and spinning pizzas? I'd give a great deal to know. As it stands I'm all but done. I am truly weary of all of this and simply want to get off the train. And yet I'm torn down the middle. Logos has so much promise and so much potential but seems to have fundamental problems somewhere deep down in its codebase. A word of encouragement from Logos committing to fix these issues would go along way to renewing hope. My previous, perhaps flawed, attempt to elicit a firm commitment from Bob Pritchett towards quality and fixing the issues has left me less convinced than ever that Logos is serious about fixing the Mac version. I appreciate the sentiments of those who have heaped praise on Bob for his vision, etc but I still feel that Logos is not taking these issues seriously. Can Logos provide any word of encouragement / commitment? Does Logos "feel" our pain and "share" our frustrations and irritations? Or are those of us who experience daily crashes simply an annoying minority?

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2011 7:15 PM

Dear Stuart: They just had me delete some files and my install is back to working ( slow as usual, but functional) . I too was having it load in the little box ( lower left screen for me).

Could you check and see if you are having problems with the Exegetical Guide as well, either by highlighting a word and then right clicking or, by pulling it up into the left panel.

If so, the instructions I got in the other thread, may be helpful to you as well.

Hope this is of some small help.

Posts 524
Stuart Robertson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2011 12:31 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Could you check and see if you are having problems with the Exegetical Guide as well, either by highlighting a word and then right clicking or, by pulling it up into the left panel.

Exegetical guide seems to work fine - tried it on John 3.16 and 1 Tim 1:15 and it works okay. Clicking on words in the guide had no ill effects. I'll try the instructions from the other thread.

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Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2011 12:59 AM

Stuart Robertson:
Exegetical guide seems to work fine - tried it on John 3.16 and 1 Tim 1:15 and it works okay. Clicking on words in the guide had no ill effects. I'll try the instructions from the other thread.

Observation: the instructions from the other thread were based on Exegetical Word by Word crash messages in Logos4.log file.  Since Exegetical guide is working, suspect have a different issue so have doubts about steps in other thread being helpful.

Keep Smiling Smile

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