baptism

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Randall Cue | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jan 1 2012 4:39 PM

Can anyone give a citation for the first recorded instance of infant baptism. This is an historical question not a theological one.

Soli Deo Gloria,

Randy

Soli Deo Gloria

Randy

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2012 5:21 PM

I doubt that the first recorded instance would be reliable but take this for what it is worth http://www.oldpaths.com/archive/bailey/john/carlos/1903/Articles/baptismi.html
i.e. Google for "infant baptism" recorded

But you can also search Logos for

"infant baptism" NEAR recorded

or

"infant baptism" NEAR century

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2012 5:24 PM

Most likely Acts 16:15,33; 18:8; 1 Cor 1:16 ...More clearly: (Sorry but I've not converted these to Logos links). EDIT The following is taken from another site - edited down to what is historical. I do see that I accidentally included one clause that is conclusion not quotation or description. I have removed it.

In the year 215 AD, the Church Father St. Hippolytus of Rome writes:

"And they shall Baptize the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family." (Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 c. AD 215).

Now, St. Hippolytus was the disciple of St. Irenaeus of Lyon; and, in AD 180, St. Irenaeus writes:

"For He came to save all through Himself --all, I say, who through Him are born again to God [i.e., Baptized] -- infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men." (Irenaeus, Against the Heresies 2:22:4 -- c. AD 180)

St. Irenaeus was the disciple of St. Polycarp, who was the disciple of the Apostle John himself (as well as an associate of the Apostle Philip). And, in AD 155, St. Polycarp said this at his execution:

"Polycarp declared, 'Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He never did me injury. How can I blaspheme my King and Savior?" (Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp 9 c. AD 156)

Now, it is well documented that "The Martyrdom of Polycarp" was written the year after the saint's execution; and so the quote above is extremely reliable. It is also well documented that Polycarp was 86 years old at the time of his death. Therefore, if the saint claims to have served Jesus for 86 years, it therefore follows that he was Baptized as an infant. And, in another place, we are told that Polycarp was Baptized by none other than the Apostle John!

Furthermore, here are some more Church Fathers on infant Baptism.

St. Justin Martyr (150 AD):

"And both men and women who have been Christ's disciples since infancy, remain pure, and at the age of sixty or seventy years ..." (Justin Martyr, First Apology,15:6 -- AD 110-165)

Origen (244 AD):

"Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And, indeed, if there were nothing in infants that required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of Baptism would be superfluous." (Origen, Homily on Leviticus 8:3 -- AD 244)

St. Cyprian (250 AD)

"But in respect to the case of infants, which you say ought not to be Baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think one who is just born should not be Baptized and sanctified within the eighth day ....And therefore, dearest brother, this was our opinion in council, that by us no one ought to be hindered from Baptism ...we think is to be even more observed in respect of infants and newly-born persons." (Cyprian, Epistle 58, To Fides [54] -- AD 251)

St. Gregory Nazianzus (381 AD)

"Be it so, some will say, in the case of those who ask for Baptism; what have you to say about those who are still children and conscious neither of the loss nor of grace? Are we to Baptize them too? Certainly, if any danger presses. For it is better that they should be unconsciously sanctified than that they should depart unsealed and uninitiated." (Gregory Nazianzus, Oration on Holy Baptism, 40:28 -- AD 381)

St. John Chrysostom (388 AD)

"We do Baptize infants, although they are not guilty of any [personal] sins." (John Chrysostom, Ad Neophytos -- AD 388)

St. Ambrose (387 AD)

"Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. No one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity." (Ambrose of Milan, Abraham 2,11,84 -- AD 387) 

St. Augustine (415 AD)

"Likewise, whoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that Sacrament (Baptism) are alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to lose no time and run in haste to administer Baptism to infant children, because it is believed as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ." (Augustine, Epistle 167 -- AD 415)

Council of Carthage (418 AD)

"Canon 2: Likewise it has been decided that whoever says that infants fresh from their mother's wombs should not be Baptized ...let him be anathema." (Council of Carthage, AD 418)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2012 5:45 PM

MJ. Smith:
More clearly:

Clear and thorough!

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2012 6:02 PM

Crystal Clear!  Indeed!            Thank you, and Peace!                 *smile*

                                                                                                  Psalm 46:1 Psalm 46:2

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2012 6:28 PM

Here's a good possibility - The rest of the article can be found here ~~> http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1540-a-history-of-the-baptism-apostasy

Best of all, Meyer's Commentary (soon to be released) is quoted in this article [see the part in bold italics].

Infant Baptism

Since both faith and repentance are conditions leading to New Testament baptism, naturally infants are excluded (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38). Infants have not the mental capacity to believe in Christ, and they cannot repent for they “have no knowledge of good or evil.” (Deuteronomy 1:39) Hence, the practice of “infant baptism” is unknown to Holy Scripture.

The first possible allusion to infant baptism is by Irenaeus (ca. A.D. 140-203), a 2nd century theologian in Gaul. “He [Christ] came to save, through means of himself, all who through him are born again unto God, infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men” (Against Heresies, 2.22.4; ANF, 1.391). But a contemporary, Tertullian (ca. 150- 222 A.D.), a scholar in the Roman province of Africa, opposed the practice:

“Let them come while they are growing up; let them come while they are learning, while they are being taught to what it is they are coming; let them become Christians when they are susceptible of the knowledge of Christ. What haste to procure the forgiveness of sins for the age of innocence! … Let them first learn to feel their need of salvation; so it may appear that we have given to those that wanted” (On Baptism, xviii; ANF, 3.678).

Augustus Neander, a Lutheran historian, made this important comment: “Tertullian appears as a zealous opponent of infant baptism; a proof that the practice had not as yet come to be regarded as an apostolical institution; for otherwise Tertullian hardly would have ventured to express himself so strongly against it” (1850, 1.432). Neander also acknowledged that: “Baptism at first was administered only to adults,” because baptism and faith were “strictly connected” (1.430).

Although Tertullian opposed infant baptism, he did “fertilize the soil” for its ready acceptance by others. He taught that the human spirit, like the body, is transmitted from parent to child (Strong, 1976, 493). Thus, man inherits both a blemished soul and body. Cyprian, in the 3rd century, reasoned:

“But again, if even the chief of sinners, who have been exceedingly guilty before God, receive the forgiveness of sins on coming to the faith, and no one is precluded from baptism and from grace, how less should the child be kept back, which, as it is but just born, can not have sinned, but has only brought with it, by its descent from Adam, the infection of the old death; and which may the more easily obtain the remission of sins, because the sins which are forgiven it are not its own, but those of another” (Epistle,lviii.5; ANF, 5.354).

Origen (ca. A.D.185-254), another post-apostolic writer, erroneously declares:

“Little children are baptized for the remission of sins. Whose sins are they? When did they sin? Or how can this explanation of the baptismal washing be maintained in the case of small children, except according to the interpretation we spoke of a little earlier? No man is clean of stain, not even if his life upon the earth had lasted but a single day” (Homilies in Luke, xiv.5; Lienhard, 1996, 58).

The practice of infant baptism did not become common until the 5th century, after the writings of the North African theologian Augustine had popularized the theory of “original sin.” Even Philip Schaff, a member of the Reformed Church, and a strong pedo-baptist advocate, was forced to admit that “adult baptism was the rule, infant baptism the exception” until the church was fairly established in the Roman Empire. He points out that Augustine, Gregory Nazianzen, and Chrysostom had “Christian” mothers, yet these men were not baptized until early manhood (1884, I.210).

H.A.W. Meyer (1800-1873) was one of the most prominent commentators produced by the German Lutheran Church. He thus had no intrinsic bias against infant baptism, yet in his commentary on Acts [16:15], he wrote: “The baptism of the children of Christians, of which no trace is found in the N.T., is not to be held as an apostolic ordinance, as, indeed, it encountered early and long resistance; but it is an institution of the church, which gradually arose in post-apostolic times…” (1883, 312).

The practice of “baptizing” infants is a human tradition, utterly void of biblical sanction. It instills a false sense of confidence in youngsters as they grow up, and is a hindrance to genuine obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I hope this helps!

DAL

Posts 84
Jerry Fourroux | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2012 6:39 PM

DAL:

Here's a good possibility - The rest of the article can be found here ~~> http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1540-a-history-of-the-baptism-apostasy

Best of all, Meyer's Commentary (soon to be released) is quoted in this article [see the part in bold italics].

 

Infant Baptism

Since both faith and repentance are conditions leading to New Testament baptism, naturally infants are excluded (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38). Infants have not the mental capacity to believe in Christ, and they cannot repent for they “have no knowledge of good or evil.” (Deuteronomy 1:39) Hence, the practice of “infant baptism” is unknown to Holy Scripture.

 

 

Hmm, that first paragraph is theological and not historical.  Theologically, Christ was baptized and did not need to repent of sin.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2012 6:48 PM

Try a search on your entire library: "Infant Baptism" OR Paedo-baptism

An article that traces the history is available at http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar40.htm  which I think is a Lutheran site but I'm not certain.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2012 7:02 PM

Please, Brothers and Sisters of the Logos Forums.  On the first day the New Year perhaps we could make a real effort to follow Phil Gons' guidelines:

  1. Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.
  2. Please treat each other with the love, courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were sitting in your living room together.

Thank you and a Blessed and Happy and Healthy New Year to each of you.  Peace to you because of Emmanuel - God IS  with us!         *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 7534
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2012 7:57 PM

No debating on my part.  Happy New Year! Smile

Posts 77
Paul Oertly | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2012 9:30 PM

 

 Odd:

One forum member is Heartily applauded for her comments.Another is reminded of forum guidelines for the same effort.

Milford Charles Murray:
Crystal Clear!  Indeed!            Thank you, and Peace!                 *smile*
Milford Charles Murray:

Please, Brothers and Sisters of the Logos Forums.  On the first day the New Year perhaps we could make a real effort to follow Phil Gons' guidelines:

  1. Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.
  2. Please treat each other with the love, courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were sitting in your living room together.

Thank you and a Blessed and Happy and Healthy New Year to each of you.  Peace to you because of Emmanuel - God IS  with us!         *smile*

One has to wonder what caused the change of heart.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2012 10:22 PM

Paul Oertly:
One forum member is Heartily applauded for her comments.Another is reminded of forum guidelines for the same effort.

Please reread the two posts. I tried to provide nothing but quotations from the Early Church Fathers with only comments as to why they were relevant - I tried both to stay with history as the original poster requested and also stay within the guidelines. The other response to which you refer offered a commentary that evaluated the quotations rather than simply presenting them - in this particular case that is not what the original poster requested. Others, including myself, gave the OP search terms to help him find (and evaluate) the available data.

Had I offered the argument from scripture or speculated on why or why not the ECFs wrote as they did, you would be right to call me out for my answer. Yes, I should have provided links to Logos but I was tired and lazy. If you believe I misrepresented the data, feel free to add additional context from primary sources.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2012 11:26 PM

DAL:
Since both faith and repentance are conditions leading to New Testament baptism, naturally infants are excluded (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38). Infants have not the mental capacity to believe in Christ, and they cannot repent for they “have no knowledge of good or evil.” (Deuteronomy 1:39) Hence, the practice of “infant baptism” is unknown to Holy Scripture

.

Hi, Dal this is biblical and true.

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 77
Paul Oertly | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2012 11:46 PM

`

 

Posts 77
Paul Oertly | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 2 2012 12:05 AM

The OP asked for a citation for the first recorded infant baptism...and asked that it not be a theological debate. He did not ask for a thesis on how the disciple of a disciple of a disciple could be construed to have been baptized at birth. None of the citations qualify as an answer to his question. You had to string together a dozen citations and apply commentary based on your theology to reach what you consider to be a conclusion.

MJ. Smith:
Therefore, if the saint claims to have served Jesus for 86 years, it therefore follows that he was Baptized as an infant.

(Lk 1:15) “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb." 

By your reasoning:

Since John was set aside For the service of the LORD and filled with the Holy Spirit in his mothers womb, Was he baptized before birth?

. Furthermore i see no value in quoting roman curses.

MJ. Smith:
"Canon 2: Likewise it has been decided that whoever says that infants fresh from their mother's wombs should not be Baptized ...let him be anathema." (Council of Carthage, AD 418)
If anyone believes in their curses...then I, for one, would be considered anathema.

         (Ac 8:36–37) As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 

    And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 2 2012 1:15 AM

Paul Oertly:
By your reasoning:

The post was taken from another source and reflects none of my own reasoning. I did my best to edit out theological statements and carefully insured that there was no statement of evaluation included.  I don't see what more I could have done and still provided the original poster with the information he needs to determine what he deems the first recorded mention.

Paul Oertly:
None of the citations qualify as an answer to his question.

That is for the original poster to determine. I'm bowing out of this thread unless the OP has followup questions.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 77
Paul Oertly | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 2 2012 1:21 AM

Jerry Fourroux:
Christ was baptized and did not need to repent of sin.
Oh, But He did. Not His sin...but Ours.

 (Jn 1:29) “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 

 

 

Posts 77
Paul Oertly | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 2 2012 1:26 AM

MJ. Smith:
The post was taken from another source and reflects none of my own reasoning
Are you saying that these are not your words? They are not in blue...and not in quotes. No citation was given.

 

MJ. Smith:

Now, it is well documented that "The Martyrdom of Polycarp" was written the year after the saint's execution; and so the quote above is extremely reliable. It is also well documented that Polycarp was 86 years old at the time of his death. Therefore, if the saint claims to have served Jesus for 86 years, it therefore follows that he was Baptized as an infant. And, in another place, we are told that Polycarp was Baptized by none other than the Apostle John! :-) Therefore, at least in the case of St. John, we can show conclusively that the Apostles Baptized infants.

Furthermore, here are some more Church Fathers on infant Baptism. Thought I'd throw them in. ;-)

 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 2 2012 2:01 AM

Milford Charles Murray:

Please, Brothers and Sisters of the Logos Forums.  On the first day the New Year perhaps we could make a real effort to follow Phil Gons' guidelines:

  1. Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.
  2. Please treat each other with the love, courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were sitting in your living room together.

Thank you and a Blessed and Happy and Healthy New Year to each of you.  Peace to you because of Emmanuel - God IS  with us!         *smile*

Thanks Milford for reminding us to the forum rules. 

Especially the topic of baptism is (on both sides of the debate) very dear to the heart, which makes No. 2 difficult - that's one of the reasons No. 1 is neccessary. The original poster especially asked about historical, not theological aspects. I think there have been some good links, search hints etc. provided. Maybe they suffice, otherwise links to additional material in Logos or how to unearth this information from the wealth of resources we have available are called for, not a discussion of pedo- versus credobaptistic apologia. 

Mick

   

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 77
Paul Oertly | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 2 2012 4:35 AM

MJ. Smith:
I did my best to edit out theological statements and carefully insured that there was no statement of evaluation included.
Hogwash ! The first 2 and the last 8 quotes are nothing but roman theology/dogma.They do not in any way address  the question of when the first infant baptism occurred. The last quote is a blatant curse on anyone who dares to disagree... And you still maintain you edited?   Hogwash !
MJ. Smith:
Furthermore, here are some more Church Fathers on infant Baptism 
MJ. Smith:
"And they shall Baptize the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family." (Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition, 21 c. AD 215).
MJ. Smith:
"For He came to save all through Himself --all, I say, who through Him are born again to God [i.e., Baptized] -- infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men." (Irenaeus, Against the Heresies 2:22:4 -- c. AD 180)
 

St. Justin Martyr (150 AD):

"And both men and women who have been Christ's disciples since infancy, remain pure, and at the age of sixty or seventy years ..." (Justin Martyr, First Apology,15:6 -- AD 110-165)

Origen (244 AD):

"Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And, indeed, if there were nothing in infants that required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of Baptism would be superfluous." (Origen, Homily on Leviticus 8:3 -- AD 244)

St. Cyprian (250 AD)

"But in respect to the case of infants, which you say ought not to be Baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think one who is just born should not be Baptized and sanctified within the eighth day ....And therefore, dearest brother, this was our opinion in council, that by us no one ought to be hindered from Baptism ...we think is to be even more observed in respect of infants and newly-born persons." (Cyprian, Epistle 58, To Fides [54] -- AD 251)

St. Gregory Nazianzus (381 AD)

"Be it so, some will say, in the case of those who ask for Baptism; what have you to say about those who are still children and conscious neither of the loss nor of grace? Are we to Baptize them too? Certainly, if any danger presses. For it is better that they should be unconsciously sanctified than that they should depart unsealed and uninitiated." (Gregory Nazianzus, Oration on Holy Baptism, 40:28 -- AD 381)

St. John Chrysostom (388 AD)

"We do Baptize infants, although they are not guilty of any [personal] sins." (John Chrysostom, Ad Neophytos -- AD 388)

St. Ambrose (387 AD)

"Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. No one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity." (Ambrose of Milan, Abraham 2,11,84 -- AD 387) 

St. Augustine (415 AD)

"Likewise, whoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that Sacrament (Baptism) are alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to lose no time and run in haste to administer Baptism to infant children, because it is believed as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ." (Augustine, Epistle 167 -- AD 415)

Council of Carthage (418 AD)

"Canon 2: Likewise it has been decided that whoever says that infants fresh from their mother's wombs should not be Baptized ...let him be anathema." (Council of Carthage, AD 418)

 

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