baptism

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 1:49 PM

Willard Scott:
Wouldn't you think it would also be logical for someone with MUCH  more knowledge about the history of controversy over this particular topic might not have answered the question with a curse from the holy see?

Perhaps so. But I am so used to simply looking at the data available on the early church including that deemed heretical, that it didn't even register that a Council statement would be treated received any differently than any other source. In my world, if people thought  I misrepresented the data they would respond with additional data from the early church. But given the question was for the first attested infant baptism, I fail to see how the data I presented could be "refuted" by additional data. It could be refuted only by proving I invented non-existent quotes. (Yes, I have seen that done in a book from the late 1800's.)

Observing the forum as an "outsider" in the sense of not being of the presumed evangelical bent (assumed in the sense of what people recommend when someone asks for the best resources), I decided long ago that all I could do is act with integrity - I cannot predict peoples' response. It truly did not cross my mind that documents more than 1500 years old could start an argument.  And it still baffles me as to why.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 1:58 PM

MJ. Smith:
It truly did not cross my mind that documents more than 1500 years old could start an argument.  And it still baffles me as to why.

Perhaps because your dealing with people and not robots.

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Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 2:01 PM

MJ. Smith:
In my world
Some people who do live in your world, do not like to have curses cast at them. 

a·nath·e·ma

  [uh-nath-uh-muh]  Show IPA noun, plural -mas. 1. a person or thing detested or loathed: Thatsubject is anathema to him. 2. a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction. 3. a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication. 4. any imprecation of divine punishment. 5. a curse; execration.
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Rod | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 2:01 PM

MJ. Smith:

 

Just downloaded this on my kindle as well.

MJ, do you have any more great books that are suitable for kids?  I am always looking for good books to read to my grandkids.

Thanks!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 2:08 PM

Willard Scott:
Some people who do live in your world, not like to have curses cast at them. 

As the meaning in this context is clearly:

Willard Scott:
3. a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication

I would think people would be delighted ... they appear to not want communion with the church as represented in the council. Which means I am loosing patience and need to bow out of the thread permanently.

P.S.I am delighted that others are enjoying The Fallacy Detective.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 2:31 PM

MJ. Smith:
It truly did not cross my mind that documents more than 1500 years old could start an argument.  And it still baffles me as to why.

Yes

Certainly, quoting a historical source is not the same as endorsing, or promoting the substance of the quote.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Paul Oertly | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 2:38 PM

MJ. Smith:

As the meaning in this context is clearly:

Willard Scott:
3. a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication

No ! It's not at all Clear. My wife (a Catholic) lost a Baby, Almost full term but not strong enough to survive. The priest was there before she even made it back to her room. Screaming at her...that if she didn't  have the baby baptized immediately that she was doomed to eternal hell fire...and the wife with her.  She never recovered from that trauma. For the rest of her life she could not get beyond that injustice. She had been brainwashed to believe that the priest actually spoke for God. Therefore God was unfair. That incident cost her a relationship with God. I would hope she resolved that issue before she died...but I saw no evidence of it. So NO...It's  much more than an ecclesiastical curse.

 

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 2:40 PM

What so many people are missing here is that MJ is all about supplying facts to whatever question is asked. It doesn't matter if it's a blessing or a curse, if she agrees with it or not. A blessing on people baptizing infants, a curse on people baptizing infants, and a curse on people not baptizing infants, all have one thing in common: they prove that infants were baptized at that time -- which is exactly what the OP asked about.

MJ just uses whatever quotes she happens to find that provides an answer. I've seen her post long lists of quotes supporting positions I know she doesn't hold, simply because that's what was asked for. I can't remember seeing any other person on these forums doing that.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 2:57 PM

fgh:

What so many people are missing here is that MJ is all about supplying facts to whatever question is asked. It doesn't matter if it's a blessing or a curse, if she agrees with it or not. A blessing on people baptizing infants, a curse on people baptizing infants, and a curse on people not baptizing infants, all have one thing in common: they prove that infants were baptized at that time -- which is exactly what the OP asked about.

MJ just uses whatever quotes she happens to find that provides an answer. I've seen her post long lists of quotes supporting positions I know she doesn't hold, simply because that's what was asked for. I can't remember seeing any other person on these forums doing that.

Yes

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 2:59 PM

Paul Oertly:

MJ. Smith:

As the meaning in this context is clearly:

Willard Scott:
3. a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication

No ! It's not at all Clear. My wife (a Catholic) lost a Baby, Almost full term but not strong enough to survive. The priest was there before she even made it back to her room. Screaming at her...that if she didn't  have the baby baptized immediately that she was doomed to eternal hell fire...and the wife with her.  She never recovered from that trauma. For the rest of her life she could not get beyond that injustice. She had been brainwashed to believe that the priest actually spoke for God. Therefore God was unfair. That incident cost her a relationship with God. I would hope she resolved that issue before she died...but I saw no evidence of it. So NO...It's  much more than an ecclesiastical curse.

Talk about a terribly insensitive priest!

I'm sure that was an incredibly painful experience for her, and for you as you walked with her through it.

Awful. Just awful.

(Sadly, bad, faith-traumatizing behavior is not limited to R.C. clergy. Been there. Done that. [heavy sigh])

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 2:59 PM

What you people keep forgetting is that this isn't the place. Teach them how to use the software, not how to fuel a debate.

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Paul Oertly | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 3:03 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
(Sadly, bad, faith-traumatizing behavior is not limited to R.C. clergy. Been there. Done that. [heavy sigh])
what you may not be seeing is the mandatory infant baptism rule still exists. and the threat of anathema with it. It's not 1500 year old history to me.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 3:32 PM

Paul Oertly:

Richard DeRuiter:
(Sadly, bad, faith-traumatizing behavior is not limited to R.C. clergy. Been there. Done that. [heavy sigh])
what you may not be seeing is the mandatory infant baptism rule still exists. and the threat of anathema with it.

I see it. I see your hurt too.

What I don't see is why citing the conciliar action in the context of answering a historical question is somehow an endorsement or promotion of that council's action.

By way of analogy: as a protestant in the Reformed tradition, with historical roots going back to the reformation in the Netherlands, there have been plenty of anathemas spoken against me/us by the R.C. church. Let's say I asked for information about the differing theologies of justification during the time of the Reformation. Let's say someone provided me with some quotes from the council of Trent including the anathemas. Would that bother me? No. Unless the person citing the information was also attacking the protestant views on justification. Trent is history. It happened. Citing it, or not won't change history.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 3:42 PM

Richard, One does not have to endorse or promote to fuel a debate.

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Paul Oertly | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 3:51 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
What I don't see is why citing the conciliar action in the context of answering a historical question is somehow an endorsement or promotion of that council's action.
If it were not still in effect, I could see your argument. It would be just another outdated doctrine.  But that's not the case. It is alive and well. People are still being traumatized by it today. If you can't see that, I fear i'm ill equipped to convince you. I have a son and 2 granddaughters. The same sort of power play was attempted. They reject organized religion because of it. Don't you see the souls being lost because of this bullying tactic?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 4:27 PM

Paul, I am going to write publicly what I wrote in private - the priest was theologically and pastorally wrong and I am very sorry for the pain he caused. Priests are human and flawed, just like the rest of us.

For any who care to look, wikipedia or the Logos resource by Ott will give a clearer view of Catholic theology - but its far too late to erase the pain.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 5:08 PM

Paul Oertly:
Richard DeRuiter:
What I don't see is why citing the conciliar action in the context of answering a historical question is somehow an endorsement or promotion of that council's action.
If it were not still in effect, I could see your argument. It would be just another outdated doctrine.  But that's not the case. It is alive and well. People are still being traumatized by it today. If you can't see that, I fear i'm ill equipped to convince you.

I see your point: The R.C. church and/or members and leaders of that church have used their theology of infant baptism to bully and badger people until they decided to leave not only that church but 'organized religion' itself. (I will leave unanswered whether and to what degree I agree/disagree with your point.)

But your point isn't germane to the topic of this thread.

If we were talking about the theology of infant baptism (which is outside the scope of these forums), or if we were talking about the application of R.C. theology throughout history to the present, or if we were talking about power abuse in the clergy, your point would carry weight.

But we're not talking about that.

We're talking about providing a historical question with answers from historical documents of or near the time in question.

Citing a statement from an early historical document, to answer a question that requires citing early historical documents is still just citing a statement. It has nothing to do with endorsing or rejecting what one is citing. It's just a citation. It's not saying it's a good thing they did this, or that what they did is bad. Value judgments on what that council did, or what the R.C. church has done since is a different topic entirely (and not appropriate to these forums). The fact that they did what they did is not in dispute. And facts are what the OP wanted.

Perhaps you think MJ selected her facts with some sort of hidden agenda in mind. If so, let's talk about that. I don't think she did that, but if you did then let's talk about motives and hidden agendas.

If we can't agree on what we're talking about, and how to talk about it, then we really have no way of carrying this discussion beyond mutual confusion over each others' position.

BTW, I'm genuinely sorry for the hurt you've experienced by the bad behavior of the people you describe. I've been with others who have gone through similar things, faced my own share of bad behavior (sometimes justified by bad theology), and know the trauma and the heart-ache.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 5:11 PM

First time reading the thread, even though I saw it earlier. It is interesting that 3441 times the thread has been read/viewed, even though it was started January 1. There are older threads on the forum which do not even have as many views.

Looks like most forum members are more into debates than discussing the software. Big Smile

Lynden Williams Communications https://www.lyndenwilliams.net 

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Paul Oertly | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 7:32 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
Perhaps you think MJ selected her facts with some sort of hidden agenda in mind. If so, let's talk about that.
OK, I will make one more stab at explaining that aspect of it. I would not go so far as to call it a hidden agenda. But she supplied citations that did nothing to answer the OP's question.
Randall Cue:
Can anyone give a citation for the first recorded instance of infant baptism
He asked for a specific instance, not an era, a decade, or a century. The first part of MJ's post that she gleaned from another website did make a case for a particular instance. No problem there. But if we are to believe that he was the first recorded infant baptism, then any citations that do not apply directly to polycarp's life or are later than the year of Polycarp's birth/purported baptism do nothing to strengthen that case. It would seem the citations that follow the statement >...
MJ. Smith:
Furthermore, here are some more Church Fathers on infant Baptism.
...do nothing to establish the "First Instance." How could they? Only Justin Martyr could be considered a contemporary. The rest are hundreds of years later. The word "furthermore" is the game changer. It would seem that from that point forward it had nothing to do with a specific instance, and everything to do with promoting the doctrine of infant baptism. (note that the last one is 3 centuries later, and adds the further issue of anathema) I hope this helps you understand my position.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 8:24 PM

Paul Oertly:
He asked for a specific instance, not an era, a decade, or a century.

From Dean053's post, you know there are differences of opinion as to which of the offered sources represents the first record of infant baptism. I prefer to leave the evaluation to the OP. If I were pushing a particular position, I would argue from Scripture before I would call in the records of the early church. I tried very carefully to not push a particular interpretation of the data or a particular theology. I am sorry that you misconstrued my intent and  that the Randall regrets asking the question.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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