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Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 8:13 PM

Denise Barnhart:
Unloading people who can't afford the freight improves the neighborhood.

We have all been paying the same prices whether the resource was for Libronix 3 or Logos 4. (Haven't we?)  Some people in the world would just rather drive a Camry over a Cadillac. The world becomes a boring place when we all drive the same car, live in the same...Little boxes, on the hilltop, Little boxes made of ticky-tacky..

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 10523
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 8:17 PM

Joshua ... glad to see you're on the team.  And you're right ... .whiners and loosers.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 25276
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 1:30 AM

Super Tramp:
What is clear is Logos has to cut the throat of it's sibling Libronix before Logos can claim the throne.

Some users will stay with Libronix because of those missing features. Some will migrate now or in the near future simply because they want the resources. But some will cut the rope because the situation with Libronix and L4 is unacceptable. I'm wondering when support for the software will cease, both CS and patches for new versions of IE. I hope the timing improves after this bombshell.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 1020
Tom Reynolds | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 1:46 AM

Super Tramp:

Denise Barnhart:
Unloading people who can't afford the freight improves the neighborhood.

We have all been paying the same prices whether the resource was for Libronix 3 or Logos 4. (Haven't we?)  Some people in the world would just rather drive a Camry over a Cadillac. The world becomes a boring place when we all drive the same car, live in the same...Little boxes, on the hilltop, Little boxes made of ticky-tacky..

I'm a little confused about your illustration - which one is the Cadillac? If I owned a car that took forever to start in the morning and regularly froze up when I was driving it it wouldn't be long before I traded it in for a newer model. Unfortunately, 2.5 years later the new model is still using training wheels and needs to be babied ever time I take it out of the garage! I suppose some will tell me I need a faster computer but there are numerous people on these forums with faster computers with more RAM that I could every afford who say it makes no difference. I can have 10 other programs open at once and have 50 open browser tabs but when it comes to L4; it alone taxes my computer to the max. They originally talked about getting all the features added and then refining the code to make it faster but that was two years ago. I am looking forward to the day on which we can all agree that L4 is all that L3 was and more. That day has not yet arrived and I think a little empathy is due to those who chose to use L3. I use L4 on a daily basis but there is nothing in it that I can use that wasn't in L3. And simple things like searches can take 5x as long. I am grateful for the newer tagging and library views.

In essence, Yes it's high time Logos focused on L4 and finally got it to the place L3 was. However, you won't hear me say one bad word about anyone who loves L3 and wants to continue using it!

Posts 205
Stephen Paynter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 2:44 AM

Bob Pritchett:

I'm sorry our announcement is late; we are planning to drop support for Libronix edition of new releases. It's been over 2 years since we moved to Logos 4, and most of our users have moved to it.

Dear Bob,

I feel deeply upset about this. When I purchased L3 (before L4 existed) I read carefully your policy on a husband and wife  (one of whom was in unpaid work) both using L3 on one licience; and although not explicitly stated it seemed that there was a clear nod that this was okay. So ... my wife and I heavily invested in Logos resources. She is now a PhD student in OT, and I am one in NT.

Then came L4, and I moved to it immediately. However, there was a nasty fly in the ointment ... it was now so integrated with the internet that only one set up for it was possible ... making it frustrating for a husband and wife to use together.

However, my wife was happy to continue with L3, and so we continued (and continue) to invest heavily in new resources for Logos - downloading both the L4 and the L3 resources.

I am totally dismayed by this news - I don't know what to do. I don't know whether or not to continue to purchase L4 resources ... (and a quick look at my order page, will show that I was planning to continue to spend significantly.)

The removal of L3, makes the need to be able to partition and share resources for L4 critical for those in situations like mine.

Please advise.

Yours sincerely, Stephen Paynter

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 5:54 AM

Bob Pritchett:
I'm sorry our announcement is late; we are planning to drop support for Libronix edition of new releases. It's been over 2 years since we moved to Logos 4, and most of our users have moved to it.

I feel it was done in poor taste, because Logos has no problem getting its sales messages out and is not experiencing a lack in channels to do it, either. To have a massive bombardment of sales pitches in December, only to quietly slip a notice AFTER it went into effect speaks volumes about intent and integrity.

 

Bob Pritchett:
As we add more functionality and support for richer tagging to Logos 4, it's harder and more time-consuming to build Libronix-compatible editions

I would like to get an explanation of the differences between .logos4 and .lbxlls.  Are .logos4 files so advanced that there can be no parser/viewer/converter for Libronix to simply display text, without all the bells and whistles added for L4? Even old MS Word could read new .docx format with a little FREE downloadable addon.

 

Bob Pritchett:
We believe the time is right to drop Libronix support on new releases so that we can put our resources into other efforts.

I think you have every right to discontinue support for old stuff. But timing was horrendous. An honest way would have been to announce WELL IN ADVANCE. Say 6 months. So customers could especially evaluate marketing avalanche in light of resource support. Or, how about when L5 comes out you immediately announce that ____ from now we are ceasing support for L4 resources.

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 5:59 AM

MJ. Smith:
Having just discovered in the Augustine resource the bibliography support now in L4 files, I am not surprised that the time to cut L3 loose has come

MJ, could you please elaborate? Is this just in Augustine resource (what is the title?) or any .logos4?

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 6:23 AM

Bob Pritchett:
I know many people do still use Libronix, and we're not disabling it, we're just not going to keep putting more and more effort into supporting it with new releases.

Super Tramp:
If you think, "Fine, I will just use the "Librinox downloadable files" at the bottom of my order page.", Think again. Logos has not given us any Libronix file links for resources that have shipped the last couple of days.

Not only Logos has not given us any Libronix file links for resources that have shipped the last couple of days, they disabled all links for previous orders. How about common COURTESY:

"Dear Libronix users, we are discontinuing support for Libronix files and will not be spending resources to host them on our servers. You have one week to download all the resources you have a licence to and archive them on your own. Here is the file that will update all of your resources automatically. Thank you for your business and continued support. Sincerely, Logos"

 

 

Posts 549
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 6:27 AM

William Gabriel:

I hope Logos has an answer to the question about our licenses and rights were they ever to go out of business. I don't want to have spent thousands of dollars over the years to be locked out and have all my purchased material vanish overnight because Logos shuts its doors. 

 

This is the question that haunts me sometimes.

 

Posts 8602
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 6:37 AM

Shawn Drewett:
This is the question that haunts me sometimes.
I understand the dramatic flair there.  I've had the same thoughts from time to time - even from a closer sense in terms of chronology.  I live in the country where power failures happen - enough to warrant me buying a generator.  

Before I owned that generator a day without Logos was ... well... a day without most of my resources.

That being said.... Bob has elsewhere stated that there is a large enough userbase to almost guarantee (note the qualifier?) that someone would pick up the pieces and move on.

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 6:39 AM

Bob,

Like some of the other posters here, I too am upset about this drastic change of support with no notice period!

With L3, we could download the install media, the resource files, and our license keys. This permitted a reinstal in the event thatLogos was offline for a time, or forever! Until this last week or so, this protection of our expensive purchases was in place.

Please advise how I can protect my investment with your company now the L3 support is being disabled? How can I ensure my spend on licenses how any hope of outlasting the Logos Company, in the event of some future problems?

We need a full offline install and license-key load please.

This is a CRITICAL matter and may well impact my spending with your company.

We do not all love and trust "The Cloud" no matter what others might think.

Posts 549
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 6:45 AM

Here's how it may happen one day.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Idea_Entertainment

 IOW, I agree that most likely someone will buy Logos out rather than the program discontinuing.

 

Posts 22268
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 6:57 AM

Hi Jim

JimT:

Please advise how I can protect my investment with your company now the L3 support is being disabled? How can I ensure my spend on licenses how any hope of outlasting the Logos Company, in the event of some future problems?

We need a full offline install and license-key load please.

Not suggesting for a moment that Logos shouldn't respond to this but just wondered whether Option 1 at http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers would provide some of the capability you are looking for in an L4 context?

Graham

 

Posts 10523
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 7:00 AM

TC ... you're whistling in the wind. Back in my corporate days when companies came in for software presentations, issue #1 was not its usability, efficiency, price, etc. It was handling of licenses. The reason was (and is) that companies come and go fairly frequently. Large corporations have to plan for that. They can't just shrug their shoulders.

In a similar vein, when we moved to Sedona in 2004, the real estate folks expressed complete confidence about the rise in prices, land values, and so forth. It was quite interesting because the reasoning actually had some truth to it. But knowing incomes were not rising at the same rate as real estate, demanded the common sense conclusion that the claims were not sustainable. We just didn't know why (and luckily bought well below the market).

The point I am making is that each person really HAS to apply some common sense to their situation. If they're a pastor, the books are like a tool set ... they come and go. If the person isn't that well off, they need to plan for loosing their investment. Life happens. Bob can't promise the future, though he'd like to.

People whistle that Bob's a good guy (true). That he's successfully managed his enterprise historically (not true per his own admission). That the owners are on the same songsheet (not likely; they keep apologizing for mis-steps). That the industry continues to seem stable (not true; ask the Praedis users along with consolidation of Bible software companies). All the clues are there, as they were prior to the real estate collapse.

I personally have no trouble supporting L4; runs smooth, easy to use. We'd have no trouble buying Portfolio, just with our monthly 'mad money'. But having sat in many a boardroom presentation, getting a lock on Libronix was the criticality for me. I don't propose to be a fool (at least in this instance anyway!).

And so I encourage folks to 'use some common sense' about their future. Plan ahead. Think it through.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 323
Ralph Mauch | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 7:04 AM

Dave Hooton:
But some will cut the rope because the situation with Libronix and L4 is unacceptable. I'm wondering when support for the software will cease, both CS and patches for new versions of IE. I hope the timing improves after this bombshell.

That's about the only thing that concerns me, I use both versions at times, just be cause when I'm wanting to make notes in a study L3 is easier and faster, and some searches, even if they're not as easy as L4, give me different returns, that L4 doesn't yet give me. L4 is a one fits all products, L3 is/was more of a make it do what you like product. I would have felt better when L4 was created if it had all the features of L3, but in a new format... by different I don't mean exactly the same, but the end results are close enough for those of us who had come to love L3, and still do.

Also, I hope that all the resources in L3, that come up in L4 will still be there, and another question, will adding resources in L3 from another supplier "not" be available to import to L4?

 

Posts 1674
Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 7:16 AM

I'll make this observation: the Mac user base has no access to Libronix as it was discontinued well before Lion was released.  (unless you run a special emulator). I've read all the replies to get a sense for the disgust but feel oddly that I'm not missing out because I never really experienced Libronix in the first place.  I think many newer users may be scratching our heads at these responses.  Are we just ignorant?  Is it like having to go to my grandfather to be told how the good ole days were or is ignorance bliss in our case?*

 

*no disrespect toward anyone who feels at a loss by this recent news

Posts 549
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 7:26 AM

Paul, I'll speak for myself. L3 worked/works like lightening on my past and present computers. I upgraded to L4 a year ago and ever since it's like trying to run in knee deep mud. From Bob's (i.e. Logos') perspective, they've stepped out and now must "go with it." If I were in their shows I'd be forced to make the same decisions. Taking risks, that's what owning a business is all about. And once you've decided on a plan, there's no turning back or else you'll lose face and the confidence of your clients.

Like I said, I'm speaking only for myself.

Posts 1977
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 7:30 AM

Stephen Edward Paynter:

Bob Pritchett:

I'm sorry our announcement is late; we are planning to drop support for Libronix edition of new releases. It's been over 2 years since we moved to Logos 4, and most of our users have moved to it.

 

Dear Bob,

I feel deeply upset about this. When I purchased L3 (before L4 existed) I read carefully your policy on a husband and wife  (one of whom was in unpaid work) both using L3 on one licience; and although not explicitly stated it seemed that there was a clear nod that this was okay. So ... my wife and I heavily invested in Logos resources. She is now a PhD student in OT, and I am one in NT.

Then came L4, and I moved to it immediately. However, there was a nasty fly in the ointment ... it was now so integrated with the internet that only one set up for it was possible ... making it frustrating for a husband and wife to use together.

However, my wife was happy to continue with L3, and so we continued (and continue) to invest heavily in new resources for Logos - downloading both the L4 and the L3 resources.

I am totally dismayed by this news - I don't know what to do. I don't know whether or not to continue to purchase L4 resources ... (and a quick look at my order page, will show that I was planning to continue to spend significantly.)

The removal of L3, makes the need to be able to partition and share resources for L4 critical for those in situations like mine.

Please advise.

Yours sincerely, Stephen Paynter

I also am not happy to read this, but I completely saw it coming two years ago with the fiasco of the introduction of L4.  I was not caught off guard.

Posts 1977
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 7:34 AM

Paul Newsome:

I'll make this observation: the Mac user base has no access to Libronix as it was discontinued well before Lion was released.  (unless you run a special emulator). I've read all the replies to get a sense for the disgust but feel oddly that I'm not missing out because I never really experienced Libronix in the first place.  I think many newer users may be scratching our heads at these responses.  Are we just ignorant?  Is it like having to go to my grandfather to be told how the good ole days were or is ignorance bliss in our case?*

 

*no disrespect toward anyone who feels at a loss by this recent news

Paul, L5 will one day come out....and when it does, there is a chance that an announcement will be made that support for L4 will continue.  Two years into L5, Logos will then suddenly drop support for L4.  You, and all those who did not experience Libronix, will then experience the sense and level of frustration that those who have already gone this route are experiencing today. 

One must always be wise in their spending habits, knowing that whatever policy exists today, may be taken away tomorrow.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 7:36 AM

Shawn Drewett:
it's like trying to run in knee deep mud.
Very true.  Logos has made tremendous progress since L4 came out.  Still, it is the worst program that I use (and why I still use L3) as it relates to performance.  L4 (beta) is now taking close to 30 minutes to start. 

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