Michael Huffman: Jack, I appreciate your comments. This was not asked to flame a war. I know here I stand and do not need to "flame a war". It seems to me that Logos is geared more with reformed works than with works, say of those of Charles Finney. Who, I may add, has been on pre-pub now for a long time and no one seems to be interested. I wish they would go ahead and take it off....but anyway. Not making an accusation, but I have found that it is usually the semi-pelagian who is arguing about making a war and not wanting to discuss this issue. When, no matter, what side you take, is in the Scripture and must be discussed. Unfortunately, usually what people see is a mean spirited discussion based on emotion and not a spiritual discussion based on the revelation of Scripture. This is a discussion forum, that I understand to be with no limitations as the content. It started as an honest question to see what was the consesus of users, more reformed or more non-reformed. You are welcome to participate or not.
Jack,
I appreciate your comments. This was not asked to flame a war. I know here I stand and do not need to "flame a war". It seems to me that Logos is geared more with reformed works than with works, say of those of Charles Finney. Who, I may add, has been on pre-pub now for a long time and no one seems to be interested. I wish they would go ahead and take it off....but anyway. Not making an accusation, but I have found that it is usually the semi-pelagian who is arguing about making a war and not wanting to discuss this issue. When, no matter, what side you take, is in the Scripture and must be discussed. Unfortunately, usually what people see is a mean spirited discussion based on emotion and not a spiritual discussion based on the revelation of Scripture. This is a discussion forum, that I understand to be with no limitations as the content. It started as an honest question to see what was the consesus of users, more reformed or more non-reformed. You are welcome to participate or not.
First, you do not know my position in regard to Calvinism, so you have no real reason to insult me, which you obviously did with your "semi-pelegian" comment. If this was an honest question, you did not need to follow it up by accusing anyone who disagreed with you of being a heretic. Your gloating that Finney's works seem stuck in pre-pub is rather disappointing.
Second, this is a discussion forum for Logos Bible Software, not an open forum for theological debate. Some off-topic posts have been tolerated, but you misunderstand its purpose when you state that there is to be no limitationas to content.
Jack
www.logos.com/support/logos5/mac/logging
Michael Huffman: MarkSwaim: Jack I completely agree with your post. There is NO purpose for this type of question at all. Mark, It is a shame that Biblical truth sparks these attitudes. This was meant as a survey question, nothing more. As I told Jack, I know where I stand and do not need to "flame a war".
MarkSwaim: Jack I completely agree with your post. There is NO purpose for this type of question at all.
I completely agree with your post. There is NO purpose for this type of question at all.
Mark,
It is a shame that Biblical truth sparks these attitudes. This was meant as a survey question, nothing more. As I told Jack, I know where I stand and do not need to "flame a war".
Survey results:
Calvinists "persevering" : 3Michael Huffman Robert PavichTed Hans
Undefined ?????? : 2Jack CavinessMark Swaim Calminians: 2Calvin HabigMatthew Jones Happy now? If you keep talking you may have to label your fellow Calvinists as Arminians too. (Remember "hyper"-adherents view all lesser adherents as non-adherents.) If you believe You persevere rather than God Preserves you, it appears you are working to keep your salvation.
Undefined ?????? : 2Jack CavinessMark Swaim
Calminians: 2Calvin HabigMatthew Jones
Happy now?
If you keep talking you may have to label your fellow Calvinists as Arminians too. (Remember "hyper"-adherents view all lesser adherents as non-adherents.) If you believe You persevere rather than God Preserves you, it appears you are working to keep your salvation.
...
Ted Hans: Matthew C Jones:Yes. But I'm not willing to draw anyone's blood over which version they should read Thanks, i appreciate this. AV only - would they have an issue with the NKJV? A "Yes" or "NO" answer will do & then i am done. Or you could recommend a book for me to look up. Every Blessings, Ted.
Matthew C Jones:Yes. But I'm not willing to draw anyone's blood over which version they should read
Thanks, i appreciate this. AV only - would they have an issue with the NKJV? A "Yes" or "NO" answer will do & then i am done. Or you could recommend a book for me to look up.
Every Blessings,
Ted.
Yes, imho, they do.
I have found that when someone identifies themselves as an AV ("KJV") only person, they will have issues with the NKJV as well as any other version. The fundamental difference is not in which version is the best translation but appears to be a faith-based conviction that the 1611 Authorized Version is "God's Word for the English-speaking peoples." I find it interesting that leaders such as Jerry Falwell, Charles Stanley, Billy Graham have been called everything from errant brothers to heretics by the KJV-only tribe.
I have heard from many sides of this debate. Most want to make personal attacks on each other or ridicule by misrepresenting their opponent's statements. There are colorful personalities on both sides that offer a lot of fuel to the fire. I do find a lot of valid points get raised in spite of the loose canons firing indiscriminately at everything that moves. There does appear to be a change in the language of modern translations that question key Bible doctrines. There does appear to be a flippant attitude that promotes a cafeteria plan of Christian doctrine -- a "whatever floats your boat" mentality.
Disclaimer: Many of my KJV-only friends think I am a poor, misguided soul for my lack of dogma in this arena.. I have a much bigger argument with the cheapening of grace and disrespect of God than I do with what version we read.
Matthew C Jones: Survey results: Calvinists "persevering" : 3Michael Huffman Robert PavichTed Hans Undefined ?????? : 2Jack CavinessMark Swaim Calminians: 2Calvin HabigMatthew Jones Happy now?
Undefined ?????? : 2Jack CavinessMark Swaim Calminians: 2Calvin HabigMatthew Jones Happy now?
You can add me to the "Undefined" or "Calminians" list, although I really don't like the name...
Bohuslav
JackCaviness: First, you do not know my position in regard to Calvinism, so you have no real reason to insult me, which you obviously did with your "semi-pelegian" comment. If this was an honest question, you did not need to follow it up by accusing anyone who disagreed with you of being a heretic. Your gloating that Finney's works seem stuck in pre-pub is rather disappointing.
I am sincerely sorry that you took my comment as an insult. If you remember what I said was that it is usually semi-pelagians who do not want to engage in a conversation about this. I did not say you were a semi-pelagian. Your right, I do not know your position, but I would take from your comments that you are NOT a calvinist, because usually calvinist say so. Given the fact that you have not, it is probably a safe bet that you are not a calvinist. If so, I apologize. Just so you understand my position, I would like to see Finney off of pre-pub, not because he was not a calvinist, but because he had major doctrinal problems, including, but not limited to, the denial of original sin.
Jack, I have seen many subjects discussed here that have had nothing to do with Logos Bible Software. For example, there was one today on which translation to use. So I am not the only one that would like to use this forum as a platform to, in a fashion becoming people of God, discuss these things. Unlike our friend Mark, who just left anything but a civil comment. But I have been misrepresented before and I will be misrepresented again. Sorry for any confusion in my comments. God Bless.
Michael
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
Matthew C Jones: Happy now?
We are suppose to be christian gentlemen. We can go without the ungracious comments. If you would like to discuss your views on another thread I would be most happy. I am sorry that you misinterpret my intentions.
Matthew C Jones:If you believe You persevere rather than God Preserves you, it appears you are working to keep your salvation.
I believe I persevere because God preserves me. It all starts and ends with Christ. Nothing of my works. You have made another misrepresentation of Calvinism.
Michael Huffman: Matthew C Jones: Happy now? We are suppose to be christian gentlemen. We can go without the ungracious comments. If you would like to discuss your views on another thread I would be most happy. I am sorry that you misinterpret my intentions.
I thought a survey is all we were asking for so I counted up the posts. Sorry if the results weren't what you wanted. Didn't mean to be "ungracious."
Only reason I commented on this thread to begin with is to say the Logos world is much bigger that just Calvinists. Then Ted asked me the AV vs NKJV question. My views are already found in 160+ posts. (Many encourage me not to speak!)
Michael Huffman: Jack, …Your right, I do not know your position, but I would take from your comments that you are NOT a calvinist, because usually calvinist say so. Given the fact that you have not, it is probably a safe bet that you are not a calvinist. If so, I apologize. Just so you understand my position, I would like to see Finney off of pre-pub, not because he was not a calvinist, but because he had major doctrinal problems, including, but not limited to, the denial of original sin. Michael
…Your right, I do not know your position, but I would take from your comments that you are NOT a calvinist, because usually calvinist say so. Given the fact that you have not, it is probably a safe bet that you are not a calvinist. If so, I apologize. Just so you understand my position, I would like to see Finney off of pre-pub, not because he was not a calvinist, but because he had major doctrinal problems, including, but not limited to, the denial of original sin.
You are making an assumption based on limited observation. You don't know my position, and you have no right to put words in my mouth. As George—a thorough Calvinist by the way—would say, you should not read only resources with which you agree.
Sometimes, we need to learn that we are speaking to a closed mind, and that logic is useless. Therefore, I will make no further posts to this thread.
Michael Huffman: Matthew C Jones:If you believe You persevere rather than God Preserves you, it appears you are working to keep your salvation. I believe I persevere because God preserves me. It all starts and ends with Christ. Nothing of my works. You have made another misrepresentation of Calvinism. Michael
We agree on one thing: It all starts and ends with Christ. Nothing of my works. I have a kinship to any person who tells me they have called on the name of Jesus.I will let Jesus determine who really belongs to him. (If I embrace the rest of Calvinism it will probably be by reading Calvin and Sprugeon rather than debating in a forum.
Michael Huffman:Unlike our friend Mark, who just left anything but a civil comment.
If you feel I have left an uncivil comment, I apologize. I was simply agreeing with Jack's post. We seem to have different understandings of the purpose of this forum. My understanding is that doctrinal discussions can be tolerated and helpful, but this forum is primarily for discussing Libronix and doctrinal discussions can result as we interact with Libronix. However, I think I am finished the debating of the past few days on the purpose of this forum.
Differences of opinion are going to result because of the vast variety of people who use this software and thus are on the forum. Some keep quiet because of provocative language used by other members claiming their way is the biblical way and all others are false. And the divisions continue because all (or most) claim to be biblical and based their arguments in the Bible. People of all persuasions debate. It is not really fair to say that if a peson is unwilling to engage in the question of calvinism that it means they are not a calvinist. Many dont debate because they have been through the debate before. You have stated that you know what you believe and indicate that the only reason you wish to debate is to correct others. Would that be a fair comment? If not, I again apologize.
I have purposefully not made known my position. The reason is because I am not on this forum to show others that my understanding of things is correct. I am on this forum to glean help from others as I use Libronix and to interact with others who use the software. Perhaps a resource or two on Libronix could help us understand the doctrine that teaches that a person who is truly regenerated can never be lost and another resource could help us to see that it is possible to abuse that doctrine to make people think that they can sin all they want and still get to heaven because they prayed a prayer. And perhaps as we interact with the software resources themselves, we can carry on discussions that would be beneficial to all and help all draw closer to the truths found in God's Word. Or perhaps someone has encountered a movement they never heard before as I did in our work in Poland (the modern apostolic movement and the Seventh Day Adventists) and can ask questions on the forum and learn of resources within Libronix that can help a person to understand the movement and make an intelligent decision whether it is of God or not.
Thus theological debates happen on this forum while interacting with the software, and helping all of us to understand various movements (whether of God or not) better that can help us in our Christian walk.
But I know that it is naive of me to think that will happen. Human nature is still human nature. We can send men to the moon, but the issues of human nature have never improved. It is why we need a Savior and why what you said is correct...it all starts with Christ and ends with Christ and is all for the glory of God.
Matthew C Jones: Yes, imho, they do. I have found that when someone identifies themselves as an AV ("KJV") only person, they will have issues with the NKJV as well as any other version. The fundamental difference is not in which version is the best translation but appears to be a faith-based conviction that the 1611 Authorized Version is "God's Word for the English-speaking peoples." I find it interesting that leaders such as Jerry Falwell, Charles Stanley, Billy Graham have been called everything from errant brothers to heretics by the KJV-only tribe. I have heard from many sides of this debate. Most want to make personal attacks on each other or ridicule by misrepresenting their opponent's statements. There are colorful personalities on both sides that offer a lot of fuel to the fire. I do find a lot of valid points get raised in spite of the loose canons firing indiscriminately at everything that moves. There does appear to be a change in the language of modern translations that question key Bible doctrines. There does appear to be a flippant attitude that promotes a cafeteria plan of Christian doctrine -- a "whatever floats your boat" mentality. Disclaimer: Many of my KJV-only friends think I am a poor, misguided soul for my lack of dogma in this arena.. I have a much bigger argument with the cheapening of grace and disrespect of God than I do with what version we read.
Thank you very much and every blessings. As promised i am done, no further question.
Ted
Matthew C Jones:If you keep talking you may have to label your fellow Calvinists as Arminians too. (Remember "hyper"-adherents view all lesser adherents as non-adherents.) If you believe You persevere rather than God Preserves you, it appears you are working to keep your salvation.
I tend to view a distinction such as "persevere / preserves" as being logomachia, a fighting over mere words, since I know of no Calvinist who would claim that he is responsible for his remaining in the faith whichever word he might use. After all, the entire point of the Calvinistic view is that it is God who acts in his salvation, not man.
georgegfsomsel
יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
George Somsel: I tend to view a distinction such as "persevere / preserves" as being logomachia, a fighting over mere words, since I know of no Calvinist who would claim that he is responsible for his remaining in the faith whichever word he might use. After all, the entire point of the Calvinistic view is that it is God who acts in his salvation, not man.
Maybe a better poll would be: "How many Logos users think they initiated &/or complete their own salvation?" Both queries are logomachies.
Or if it's just an "us versus them" thing: I bet Logos publishes more non-Calvinistic titles than Calvinistic ones. Another logomachy. It would never end.
I am just very happy to have ALL of it available. I would even place a Pre-pub for Elizabeth Fiorenza's works ($10.)
My apologies all around for any part I played in furthering this little OT dustup. I sincerely did not mean to help move us further OffTopic. I just (good naturedly) couldn't help but remind our brother that there are all sorts of theological nuances on these forums and using Libronix. As I was typing & pressing "Post" I kept thinking..."Cal, this whole thing is off topic. Responding is probably not a good idea." Whether it was the voice of wisdom or the voice of othe Holy Spirit, I don'tknow, but please accept my apologies for moving us further away from the purpose of fhese posts. I'm done with this thread.
Blessings on all who claim the name of the Lord.
Matthew C Jones:I am just very happy to have ALL of it available. I would even place a Pre-pub for Elizabeth Fiorenza's works ($10.)
I'll see your $10 and raise you another $10.
I believe hyper-calvinism is an abomination and that it's parameters equate to a puppet show.
I believe salvation is a monergistic experience, not synergistic, since God is calling all (invitation).
I believe that a person has to be born again (regenerated) to be saved and to be spiritual.
I believe that it is divisive to argue 5 points of calvinism.
I believe calvinists are misunderstood and they realize that it is not by works that a man is saved, rather grace and may I say through faith (which is given by God) in the death, burial, and ressurection of our saviour Jesus Christ.
I believe that calvinists have a very high view of God and are not necessarily ego-driven.
I read mostly reformed material myself and I know people who can't stand calvinist doctrine and have almost any argument to refute calvinistic theology.
I appreciate calvinistic views because they are doctrinally focused and conservative, rather than some happy go feel "something thats not the Gospel".....Not to imply that "others" who are not calvinists are not preaching and teaching the Gospel.
I believe there could be an argument for KJV, NASB, and ESV as being calvinist bibles.
I do not believe that a KJV bible is superior to the above mentioned, nor inferior.
I believe God gives gifts and spiritual discernment.
I believe studying Greek in terms of New Testament study is a better way of evaluating what God's word says.
I believe God can speak to anyone through most any bible translation what He wants them to know.
I just wanted to state a set of some of my core beliefs.
Dr. Charles E. Booth, Mt. Olivet Baptist Church, Columbus, OH, was overheard saying last week, “I thank God today that I'm not so Baptist that I cant be Christian.” I would say "I thank God today that I'm not Methodist that I can't be Christian."
Blessings,
Floyd
Blessings,Floyd
Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
As a non-Calvinist, I really don't care how much Calvinist material Logos offers - but if it is their bread-and-butter financially, more power to Calvinist spending!
However, given their academic packages and partnerships (Jewish, Lutheran, Catholic), I won't be happy until ALL canons & liturgical traditions-American Protestant, Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Slavic Orthodox, and Eastern Orthodox have equal support - support not resources. [Yes, I am giving Logos a break on the Coptic canon]. Even the little things - the complete 1611 King James for example, the deuterocanonical readings in the Bible reading plan and Jewish titles for the readings of the lectionary - imply an "after-thought" for the non-evangelical. But I truly expect the next version of Logos to resolve these issues.
So that my expectations are met, spend, O you Calvinist, spend. (Ps. 2009:7)
Logos4catholics Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."
Logos user here who subscribes to 5 Solas & 1 Triune God
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