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Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 8:54 AM

George Somsel:

Ken Avery:

JackCaviness:
I asked for a refrence of any Church Father rejecting the DOCUMENTS behind the Ciritical Text. It really does not matter; I was simply curious as to how this belief originated.

I have nothing; though, if you have the time you could probably, indirectly, prove a very important point. A related claim is that the Church Fathers used the TR and not the CR (I know, the CR did not exist so I will refer to the text in question (the stuff that is different between the TR and the CR) as the Alexandrian Texts).

Back to the point; knowing which text the Apostolic Fathers and the Church Fathers used, TR or Alexandrian, would go a long way to proving which text was used buy the common man. It appears to me, that this should be testable and provable.

God bless you and keep you,
Ken

 

There are frequently notes regarding such in the apparatus of the NA27.

There is one more step I left out; it is important to note the Apostolic Father's or Church Father's position, is it TR or Alexandrian. What they quote should be influenced  by what they believe; they all did not believe the same.

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Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 8:56 AM

This thread has had more viewers and more posts than almost any other thread that has been posted on this forum. So much for you all that "jumped on me" for asking the original question about Calvinism. It seems to me that the majority of the people on this thread enjoy debating, or you just like debating things that you like to debate. I noticed that Jack is back after accusing me of not reading anything but people who agree with me (I addressed that in an earlier posts) and saying that he would not comment on this thread. He has been a continual contributor on this subject. Do not make assumptions about people who want to discuss things that you are uncomfortable about, Jack, while you are willing to debate other subjects. Again, it seems that the majority of the people on this forum enjoy this "useless" debate. But I think it has run its course. Enjoy, boys!!

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 9:18 AM

George Somsel:

Ken Avery:

But what you believe didn't exist before A, B or א, did it?  Why not one of them?  Any one of them would be better than the TR.

Before what? What I believe did not exist before what?

 

Either you aren't familiar with the designations of the documents or you are being disingenuously dense.   A, B and א designate Codex Alexandrinus, Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus respectively.

I am sticking with my original answer:

Ken:
Not exactly; what I believe existed before the Critical Text Wink

I study starting from the front of the book and work my way forward; so far, what I believe is captured in the first two centuries of the Christian era. For me, the NT is like a Midrash on the Tanakh. Kind of like the first five books of Moshe are more important than the books that follow (the Prophets then the Writings); you will find mistakes corrected in the margins of the non-torah books, like Isaiah; though, the Torah was more meticulously copied.

For me the NT explains the OT and the NT cannot contradict the Tanakh because the Tanakh came first; in other words, if I find a contradiction between the OT and one of the Greek texts, I assume the Greek text that agrees with the OT is correct.

I find the Gospels in the Tanakh. For me, this is the most reliable and most important text because this was the Bible of the early Christians, not the NT in any form of Greek.

God bless you and keep you,
Ken

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 9:21 AM

Michael Huffman:

This thread has had more viewers and more posts than almost any other thread that has been posted on this forum. So much for you all that "jumped on me" for asking the original question about Calvinism. It seems to me that the majority of the people on this thread enjoy debating, or you just like debating things that you like to debate. I noticed that Jack is back after accusing me of not reading anything but people who agree with me (I addressed that in an earlier posts) and saying that he would not comment on this thread. He has been a continual contributor on this subject. Do not make assumptions about people who want to discuss things that you are uncomfortable about, Jack, while you are willing to debate other subjects. Again, it seems that the majority of the people on this forum enjoy this "useless" debate. But I think it has run its course. Enjoy, boys!!

Michael,

Once again I wonder why in the world your original post matters.    Does it matter how many guys named "Frank" are currently driving down Interstate 101? Not unless you plan on personalizing all the road signs.

If your motive was to disrespect people, I guess you did well.

 

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Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 9:34 AM

Matthew C Jones:

Once again I wonder why in the world your original post matters.    Does it matter how many guys named "Frank" are currently driving down Interstate 101? Not unless you plan on personalizing all the road signs.

If you motive was to disrespect people, I guess you did well.

Well, Matthew, why do all the posts about versions matter? Both are theological discussion, but obviously you are uncomfortable about the one that I brought up. I disrespected no one, I simply pointed out fact! My tone in my previous post as well as all my post have been much more curtious than your last one. It doesnt matter to me who is a calvinist and who is not, just like it doesnt matter to me who uses what translation or what Greek text your views fall back on. So I guess, if I use your argumentation, I could say that the discussions that you have been engaging in the last two day, Whats the point!!!!! But I will not use your process of argumentation, because you do not apply the same rules to both sides. Mine has no point because you seem to be uncomfortable with it, but others are not. Do not put people down and make assumption based on your comfort level. I believe that both conversations can be very beneficial when handled in a godly fashion. But this proves my point that I made to my Church this last Wednesday night service, "some of the most ungracious people in the world are Christians that do not agree with you". How Sad!!!!

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 9:41 AM

TeeHee.  Big Smile

You just finished insulting Jack!

I am more than comfortable talking about Calvinism & manuscripts.  It just resembles a fight in the sandbox how some people have to have a census to feel secure in their standing.

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (1Chronicles 21:1, KJV)

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 9:43 AM

Michael Huffman:

This thread has had more viewers and more posts than almost any other thread that has been posted on this forum. So much for you all that "jumped on me" for asking the original question about Calvinism. It seems to me that the majority of the people on this thread enjoy debating, or you just like debating things that you like to debate. I noticed that Jack is back after accusing me of not reading anything but people who agree with me (I addressed that in an earlier posts) and saying that he would not comment on this thread. He has been a continual contributor on this subject. Do not make assumptions about people who want to discuss things that you are uncomfortable about, Jack, while you are willing to debate other subjects. Again, it seems that the majority of the people on this forum enjoy this "useless" debate. But I think it has run its course. Enjoy, boys!!

Michael

You seem to have misinterpreted my earlier post. I said I would have no more to say on the original subject of this thread. When the thread changed direction, I felt free to rejoin the discussion. I posted because I genuinely wanted to know the basis for Ken's declaration. I do not wish to debate with Ken; all I want is information.

The Calvinist /Arminian debate was a frequent visitor to the newsgroups, and those discussions were sometimes rather heated.

Jack 

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Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 9:53 AM

Matthew C Jones:
It just resembles a fight in the sandbox how some people have to have a census to feel secure in their standing.

 

I am not sure how I started to insult, much less finished, You have a wild imagination, Matthew. How ridiculous that I need a census. What I believe is based on the text on the Bible and would discuss it even if I was the only one. Again, I was simply trying to see the views of the majority of the users because Logos has added alot of reformed writers lately and I thought that maybe it was due to the fact that people were asking for them. Which would leave me to believe that there are a lot of reformed users. That was my only reason, I do not need a census. But Matthew, I would invite you to discuss our obvious differences in another thread and I do not need a census to do it. But your quote from 1 Chronicles is most wrong and necessary, it seems to me you need to point your comments back to yourself.

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

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Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 9:58 AM

Jack,

You have my upmost respect, my friend!!!

 

Michael

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 10:19 AM

JackCaviness:
I posted because I genuinely wanted to know the basis for Ken's declaration. I do not wish to debate with Ken; all I want is information.

Jack,

Here it is; the reason I was hesitant to provide the link, is because, I do not necessarily concur with all of the information on the page and have no desire to defend what is presented. The information was provided as an example of what AV only people are saying.

Sorry I cannot defend this guy; though, here it is: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/which_bible_can_we_trust.htm

My position is to learn the OT; using the NT as Midrash and letting the OT judge the validity of the underlying Greek NT text; I have not documented my findings because I only use this method for distinguishing favorable texts in my personal reading of scripture, it never occured to me that there would be a debate. I assumed people use the Bible of their choice and hope they read it and talk about what they read, learing the way of the father.

God bless you and keep you,
Ken

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 10:32 AM

Michael Huffman:
I was simply trying to see the views of the majority of the users because Logos has added alot of reformed writers lately and I thought that maybe it was due to the fact that people were asking for them. Which would leave me to believe that there are a lot of reformed users.

 Another way of looking at the same facts is: Since Logos has already produced Thousands of titles and is just now getting around to our preferred Calvinist works, maybe they aren't as popular as you think....  Crying   See how easy it is to distort the meaning of statistics when you don't consider the unseen factors?  I would just rather say the order and content of the whole Logos library has been chosen by God and leave it at that. 

I am not being sarcastic. I really do think it is an awesome thing how God has chosen to use Logos to bless the Church. The current content of Logos is more than I ever dreamed of. The future outlook for Logos is exciting. I doubt Catholic or Protestant, Calvinist or Arminian, Instrumental vs Non, Feminist or Chauvinist, or whatever label  - will successfully censor Logos publications.

Re polls: Only once in these forums has anyone ever said they have changed their basic doctrine by reading the debates. (Although that amazes me, I will have to accept their testimony as given.)  I doubt any of us will ever sway another just with fervent intensity. The real benefit comes from iron sharpening iron. The many issues raised will generate more study.

New Poll:     How many Logos users are redheads?   (Statistics prove that most people with Doctorate degress are NOT redheads.)

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Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 10:48 AM

Matthew C Jones:
Re polls: Only once in these forums has anyone ever said they have changed their basic doctrine by reading the debates. (Although that amazes me, I will have to accept their testimony as given.)  I doubt any of us will ever sway another just with fervent intensity. The real benefit comes from iron sharpening iron. The many issues raised will generate more study.

Most people don't want the truth ...

... they'er looking for answers to confirm their prejudices.

-- Michael Heiser

 

Posts 634
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 11:19 AM

Matthew C Jones:

New Poll:     How many Logos users are redheads?   (Statistics prove that most people with Doctorate degress are NOT redheads.)

 

I am not a redhead, and am working on a Ph.D.Wink

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

Posts 634
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 11:39 AM

Ken Avery:

Most people don't want the truth ...

... they'er looking for answers to confirm their prejudices.

-- Michael Heiser

 

 

I agree that is often the case.

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 11:39 AM
Ken Avery:

JackCaviness:
I posted because I genuinely wanted to know the basis for Ken's declaration. I do not wish to debate with Ken; all I want is information.

Jack,

Here it is; the reason I was hesitant to provide the link, is because, I do not necessarily concur with all of the information on the page and have no desire to defend what is presented. The information was provided as an example of what AV only people are saying.

Sorry I cannot defend this guy; though, here it is: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/which_bible_can_we_trust.htm

My position is to learn the OT; using the NT as Midrash and letting the OT judge the validity of the underlying Greek NT text; I have not documented my findings because I only use this method for distinguishing favorable texts in my personal reading of scripture, it never occured to me that there would be a debate. I assumed people use the Bible of their choice and hope they read it and talk about what they read, learing the way of the father.

God bless you and keep you,
Ken

Ken

Thank you for the link. I'll just say that he did not prove his case and let it go at that.

Jack

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 11:46 AM
Matthew C Jones:

Michael Huffman:
I was simply trying to see the views of the majority of the users because Logos has added alot of reformed writers lately and I thought that maybe it was due to the fact that people were asking for them. Which would leave me to believe that there are a lot of reformed users.

New Poll:     How many Logos users are redheads?   (Statistics prove that most people with Doctorate degress are NOT redheads.)

My wife is a redhead (I know because I color her hair), but she does not use Logos. Does that count? Big Smile

Jack

Posts 634
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 11:59 AM

JackCaviness:
My wife is a redhead (I know because I color her hair), but she does not use Logos. Does that count?

 

Jack,

User by marriage!!!!!Cool

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 11:59 AM

Michael Huffman:

Jack,

You have my upmost respect, my friend!!!

Michael

Michael

Thank you. I will endeavor to show respect toward you also.

Jack

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 12:11 PM

JackCaviness:

My wife is a redhead (I know because I color her hair), but she does not use Logos. Does that count? Big Smile

 

Jack

I suspect she does not read these forums either Zip it!

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 12:32 PM

Ken Avery:

JackCaviness:

My wife is a redhead (I know because I color her hair), but she does not use Logos. Does that count? Big Smile

Jack

I suspect she does not read these forums either Zip it!

That would be scary! Geeked. Before I get myself in trouble with my bride of 48 years, I will hush.

Jack

 

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