Gen. 1:27

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Silver Hawk | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 8:41 PM

Super Tramp:
MusicGoodbye Stranger,   it's been nice, hope you find your paradise, tried to see your point of view, hope your dreams will all come true..... Music
If those words define your position, Do these words from the same song also define you?

Now I believe in what you say
Is the undisputed truth
But I have to have things my own way
To keep me in my youth

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 8:52 PM

Joshua G:

There are plenty of things we can know absolutely about God while at the same time not fully understanding such things. Two such things are: God is eternal and omnipresent. I know what this means I just can't fully comprehend how something can have no beginning or how something can be infinitely present. However, that doesn't matter to me. I believe it because God has revealed this knowledge to us in His Word.

My definition of absolute nothingness is: non-existence. I have stated this a couple times already. It is very simple and obviously true irrespective of philosophical mindset. Absolute nothing means just that...no substance, no energy, no space, no darkness, no existence. In fact, it is impossible to even imagine true nothingness.

If God created "out of nothing" does this not directly contradict the idea that God is infinitely present? Existence is an absolute state which God fully occupies and sustains eternally. How can something be added to this infinite and perpetual state?

If I were to rely on "pure  logic", I might be able to agree with you here on principle. Your case sounds pretty good...it even has an element of deep thoughtfulness. However, because I base my reason and philosophy on revelation AND logic, I am forced to ask: What do you say to Job 26:7??

Are you sure you believe there is NO "nothing"?

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 9:02 PM

David Paul:

If I were to rely on "pure  logic", I might be able to agree with you here on principle. Your case sounds pretty good...it even has an element of deep thoughtfulness. However, because I base my reason and philosophy on revelation AND logic, I am forced to ask: What do you say to Job 26:7??

Are you sure you believe there is NO "nothing"?

I believe my definition of nothing fits well here actually (though I am concerned about existence in my previous post). The verse is not attempting to say that "nothing" exists, rather it is affirming that "nothing" is truly nothing.

 

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 9:12 PM

The concept of nothing exists, although nothing "itself" does not. While the Earth may be suspended by nothing, this does not mean that "nothing" suspends the Earth.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 10:10 PM

Silver Hawk:
Do these words from the same song also define you?
Goodbye Stranger is a song from the perspective of a free spirit that cheerfully allows the opinions of others to dissapate like water off a duck's back. His words to his critics are rather kind. He agrees with them, ignores their condemnation, and moves on whistling. Music 

That would pretty much sum up my reaction to criticism. I am convinced that you are convinced that you are right. And I won't be unhappy with you continuing to think that you are. Another Supertramp song has these lines:

You cannot make me listen,      I cannot make you hear
You find your way to heaven, I'll meet you when you're there. How can you live in this way? You must have something to say.
We have no reason to fight, 'cos we both know that we're right.  Wink

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Posts 297
Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 10:17 PM

Super Tramp:
One second after death, all my worldly learning will be a Dandelion puff floating away into the "nothingness" that Joshua G says does not exist. Coffee
I hate to be the one to break it to you, Your Dandelion Puff floated away prematurely.
Schezic:

Super Tramp:
Would you not use it as an excuse to sample the cocaine based pharmaceuticals Jesus created?
I seriously doubt that Jesus created the drug. You said recently that your basket of apologies was almost empty and no one believed you anymore. Could statements like this be why?

Of course I will pray for your medical problems, as well as your emotional ones.

Super Tramp:

Another Supertramp song has these lines:

You cannot make me listen,      I cannot make you hear
You find your way to heaven, I'll meet you when you're there. How can you live in this way? You must have something to say.
We have no reason to fight, 'cos we both know that we're right.

Strange, You quote way more super tramp songs than Scripture. If that is where you choose to find your theology/philosophy, I will grant you the right to be wrong.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 10:34 PM

Schezic:
Your Dandelion Puff floated away prematurely

Not to worry, nothing happens pre-maturely in God's timing.

I guess the seeds have gone out to reproduce.  Great concept.

 

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 10:38 PM

Joshua G:

The concept of nothing exists, although nothing "itself" does not. While the Earth may be suspended by nothing, this does not mean that "nothing" suspends the Earth.

 

On one level, that is the distinction I wanted you to see. But I have a deeper question--What if YHWH Himself IS "nothing"?? You said:

Joshua G:

My definition of absolute nothingness is: non-existence. I have stated this a couple times already. It is very simple and obviously true irrespective of philosophical mindset. Absolute nothing means just that...no substance, no energy, no space, no darkness, no existence. In fact, it is impossible to even imagine true nothingness.

Notice two passages: first, Isa. 41:11-12, where the ones who can't be found because they become "nothing and non-existent" are primarily the Anti-Messiah and those who follow the strong delusion, and more broadly Satan also. What of this?

Think that one is a head-scratcher? Then what about Amos 6:8-14??? This one will melt your circuits! Notice especially Am. 6:10...this is really "something" (pun intended). "

10     Then one’s 1uncle, or his 2undertaker, will lift him up to carry out his bones from the house, and he will say to the one who is in the innermost part of the house, “Is anyone else with you?” And that one will say, “No one.” Then he will 3answer, “Keep quiet. For 4the name of the Lord is not to be mentioned.” (!!!)

1 Or beloved one   2 Lit one who burns him   3 Lit say   4 Lit not to make mention of the name of (NASB)

Then, just a couple of verses later, notice what it says in Amos 6:13...remembering that this is PROPHECY...it is NOT intended to be perceived ultimately as historical, even if it is.

13     You who rejoice in 1Lodebar, 2and say, “Have we not by our own strength taken 3Karnaim for ourselves?”

1 Lit a thing of nothing   2 Lit Who   3 Lit a pair of horns (NASB)

 

Historically, commentators say these were two cities (Lodebar & Karmaim) that Israel had conquered, and that may well be so, but again, within this same context is another context, the PROPHETIC CONTEXT, not the historical. There is a different but clear progression taking place. I don't want to necessarily get into the whole broad sweep, but looking at just Lodebar, notice how it fits with v. 10, earlier. In Amos 6:10 the reply that "no one" is within is met with the reply "keep quiet, do not mention the name of YHWH". Israel, just a couple of verses later, gloats in victory over a town called "a thing of nothing". This is intended to be recognized prophetically as being a victory of Israel (in their collective mind) over YHWH Himself, who is marginalized with the epithet "a thing of nothing". As a result, Israel's other gloating victory over a town called "two horns" (or "double strength") is prophetically mocked in Amos 6:14 as being eventually overthrown by a "nation" which is prophetically lead by none other than the "little horn" of Dan. 7 & 8, the Anti-Messiah.

The point of all that isn't to convey the prophecy as much as to convey the idea that YHWH is called "a thing of nothing" on the one hand...and just the name Lodebar, presents a bit of a challenge to your comments about "nothing". If YHWH is "a thing of nothing" (and He seems to choose to "own" this epithet in other contexts), then your assertion that saying " 'nothing' suspends the earth is false" is undone.

I hope I made that clear enough...I realize it is a little intricate. Geeked

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 10:53 PM

Schezic:
You quote way more super tramp songs than Scripture.

I'm surprised you don't see the parallels with the teachings of Jesus.  Christ criticized the Pharisees for thinking their own works, knowledge and righteousness would save them. Supertramp only points out the same self-righteousness in judgmental people and acknowledges their own spiritual insufficiency.

I do not worship Supertramp and I do not worship Dandelions. But I am frequently reminded of my Creator God by encounters with both. Most things in my life remind me of something God has said or done. He is just too HERE to be ignored.  Knowing He loves me makes nothing else matter. Big Smile

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Posts 297
Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 10:59 PM

I'll leave you with one final thought. Possibly your hat's too tight. Study On. ...God Bless.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 11:03 PM

Btw, for what it's worth, this verse, Am. 6:10, may be a big part of why the later leaders (the Pharisees and Rabbis) decided not to pronounce the tetragrammation, YHWH. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective), it isn't intended as a direct negative command, it is intended as a prophetic explanation of Israel's bizarre idolatry and rejection of YHWH. Here YHWH is picturing Israel's behavior and attitude in a severely mocking tone, and Israel, in one of the greatest ironies of all time, turns it into a dreadful self-fulfilling prophecy. Even so, in a way, it is YHWH's way of protecting His name from vanity, and assuring that the pearl of His Name in not thrown before swine, so to speak.

This isn't the only time YHWH uses this kind of prophetic language to create a situation where Israel's (and the Church's) response is self-comdemning self-fulfilling prophecy. He does it in Gen. 48, Isa. 29, and in Job 5, just to name three examples.

Boaz clearly used the Name when greeting others and they returned the greeting (Ruth 2:4), so NOT saying the name is obviously not the original intention of YHWH.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 11:10 PM

Schezic:
 I'll leave you with one final thought. Possibly your hat's too tight. Study On. ...God Bless. 

All I feel is big brother Jesus squeezing me affectionately in a headlock. We wrestle but he always wins.  I am content to go to Heaven without knowing all things before I get there. The only thing that matters is already settled. And I will probably get there before the rest of you.  Time

 

 

 

 

btw: Hey Logos, when I pass, I leave my Logos licenses to my wife Nina.   Does that count in probate court?  Hope so.  I haven't written a will since the December sales.Wilted Flower

 

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Posts 297
Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 14 2012 5:18 AM

Super Tramp:

 I am content to go to Heaven without knowing all things before I get there. The only thing that matters is already settled. And I will probably get there before the rest of you.  Timebtw: Hey Logos, when I pass, I leave my Logos licenses to my wife Nina.

OK, just one more final thought. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stdi-1tIUhM&feature=related

Posts 67
Ruminator | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 14 2012 5:26 AM

>>>Two such things are: God is eternal and omnipresent.

Um, neither of these are scriptural notions. They both arise from the Greek philosophers. While there are scriptures that people cite to prop up the philosopher's ideas, the scriptures do not assert these notions about Elohym/Jehovah, the manlike deity who lives in royal chambers just above the sky ceiling located one skyscraper-height above the dry land in the middle east. If he receives news of grievous misbehavior from one of his aides, he has to come down to look around for himself. He consults his friend. He forms man into a statue of himself, but forgets that he'll need an assistant, too. They disappoint him by listening to a talking animal and he damns them and all of their descendents by barring them from the magic tree that they need to not die. But they eat the other magic tree and he regrets having made them. Soon he's so angry that he not only kills the human race but everything that can't breathe water. But, one guy impresses him, so he spares him by having spend a 100 years building a boat and after the execution of all but 8 people and representatives of the animals, he smells the delicious rack of lamb cooking in his favorite guy's oven (that he was cooking just for Jehovah) and he now regrets having wreaked so much havoc in his rage. So he hangs up his beautiful multi-hued bow and arrows in the sky and writes on the black board, one hundred times:

"I will not get upset and go on a rampage." "I will not get upset and go on a rampage." "I will not get upset and go on a rampage." "I will not get upset and go on a rampage."

When people walk more than a certain distance on a Saturday, he snaps the rubberband on his wrist and looks at the bow and resists his urges. He finds a workaround... "Fire"!

This is not the deity of the philosophers - the stoic, passionless, all-wise, all-powerful, all-present, all-knowing deity that exists in no form, in no place and micro-manages every aspect of everything from end to end with an inviolable will. If you like that deity better, then you should not be reading Jewish scriptures!

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 14 2012 7:17 AM

WoundedEgo:
>>>Two such things are: God is eternal and omnipresent.

You quote Joshua G here and then proceed with an attempt to disprove him with a folksy rendition of the Flood. Your tactic does nothing to support your attempt. To rely on belief in the Scriptures to build an argument against the reliability of the Scriptures is not going to succeed. 

It is possible that today my daughter baked blueberry muffins for breakfast. You can write a documentary about her using the generalized statement that she always bakes blueberry muffins for breakfast on Saturday. You may be right, or you may be wrong. Taking one fact and extrapolating it is an unreliable way to determine the attributes of someone. 

Doing a search of Logos resources for "attributes of God" will give you a long list of works by many great scholars who searched the Scriptures deep and wide to discover the attributes of this God of the Bible. Most (all?) of them came to know this God in a real and personal way.

Scripture does reveal He is eternal and omnipresent. It reveals a lot more about Him. Telling a short account from the Scriptures in a folksy way may entertain a group but it proves absolutely nothing.

(There Joshua, WoundedEgo has proved nothing! Wink That has got to count for something!)

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Ruminator | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 14 2012 8:25 AM

>>>To rely on belief in the Scriptures to build an argument against the reliability of the Scriptures is not going to succeed.

>>>Scripture does reveal He is eternal and omnipresent. It reveals a lot more about Him. Telling a short account from the Scriptures in a folksy way may entertain a group but it proves absolutely nothing.

First of all, I do hope the group was entertained. When I type, I pretend I'm Scott Joplin, banging on the ivories.

Second of all, I don't believe that, properly understood, the scriptures define Yehovah as the theologians carry on.

So, I've showed you a host of depictions of "the god of Israel" from scripture. Where in scripture do you see the passionless micro-manager of the philosophers and theologians, who never learns anything? I said nothing about the reliability of scripture, I was merely doing a study in contrast between the philosophers/theologians and Moses.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 14 2012 9:49 AM

Wounded Ego, up until now I have purposefully not responded to you, mainly because your posts were....off. Something just didn't seem right. But now I see--you are just a crank who has wandered in here in order to cause commotion...an oh-so slightly creative flamer. Please go away.

Posts 297
Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 14 2012 9:52 AM

Super Tramp:
Telling a short account from the Scriptures in a folksy way may entertain a group but it proves absolutely nothing.
You mean like this one?
Super Tramp:
One of my favorites is Moses versus Pharaoh's magicians. Moses casts down the "rod of God" (a prop) and it turns into a serpent (a miracle outside the laws of nature.) Quite impressive! But the magicians can apparently reproduce (at least in appearance) this "miracle."  The trump card is played when God's serpent swallows up the magicians serpents, and they are no more.  Show is over, Moses takes up the rod of God and leaves. The magicians are standing around without their magic sticks. Their's have gone into the "nothingness" that truly exists, outside of our existence. I can sit and wonder how the magicians pulled off the miracle of changing their sticks into serpents, or I can marvel and rejoice that my God is sovereign over all. It isn't difficult to comprehend that kind of a god creating something out of nothing.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 14 2012 10:54 AM

My recounting of the story is actually an example of the sovereignty of God (one of many)  Whereas WoundedEgo's choice of story had absolutely nothing to do with the point he was claiming, namely, that God is neither eternal, nor omnipresent. The Bible records words attributed to God that claim He is both eternal and omnipresent, (and omniscient and omnipotent too.) If WounhdedEgo believes the Scriptures are truth ("reliable" is not necessarily 100% true) then it is easy to prove those attributes apply to God. If WoundedEgo does not believe the Scriptures, nothing you or I say will convince him of the truth.Wink

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 14 2012 7:41 PM

David Paul:

On one level, that is the distinction I wanted you to see. But I have a deeper question--What if YHWH Himself IS "nothing"?? You said:

On the contrary, I believe God is the exact opposite.

 

David Paul:

The point of all that isn't to convey the prophecy as much as to convey the idea that YHWH is called "a thing of nothing" on the one hand...and just the name Lodebar, presents a bit of a challenge to your comments about "nothing". If YHWH is "a thing of nothing" (and He seems to choose to "own" this epithet in other contexts), then your assertion that saying " 'nothing' suspends the earth is false" is undone.

 

I don't agree with your interpretation of context. God clearly exists.

 

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