Mormon Studies Collection

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Posts 1836
Kenneth Neighoff | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 2:26 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

Super Tramp:
I would have a one Book library left.

What translation? Stick out tongue

 

Which translation- that's easy, the same one Jesus, Peter, and Paul used. Wink

Posts 130
Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 2:37 PM

Martin Luther  

"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist."  (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom.  (In response to a papal bull [official decree]): "I despise and attack it, as impious, false... It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein... I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself." --D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9. 

MJ. Smith:
You are aware, I assume, that there are others than the bishop of Rome that use the title Pope? hint: check out the North African churches.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. You are aware, I assume,  that Luther posted the Ninety-Five Theses at the Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany? Clearly, he was petitioning the Roman Catholic Organization. Do you believe he was addressing African popes?Surprise

Posts 1145
William | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 4:34 PM

Willard

I am quite clear on the position of the WELS toward the Papacy.  I wholeheartedly agree with it.  My posting is not meant to muddy the waters.  There is a distinct difference between catholic and Catholic.  Capital C acts as a personal name thus it is capitalized.  As you might notice the "first" definition to catholic is the universal Christian church.

 

Posts 130
Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 5:18 PM

William Bingham:

Willard

I am quite clear on the position of the WELS toward the Papacy.  I wholeheartedly agree with it.  My posting is not meant to muddy the waters.  There is a distinct difference between catholic and Catholic.  Capital C acts as a personal name thus it is capitalized.  As you might notice the "first" definition to catholic is the universal Christian church.

 

 Before your post, there had been no mention of the universal Church. The conversation was centered around the papacy, which is tied to the Roman Catholic Organization, ... not the universal "catholic" Church. So, Whether it was your intent, or not, You did muddy the water. It seems strange that someone who claims to adhere to the WELS position would attempt to divert attention away from the deception being discussed. 

 

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 5:24 PM

Willard Scott:
Luther was the Father of the Reformation. Have you studied why The roman church needed Reformation?

Need I remind you of the "Morningstar of the Reformation", John Wycliff?  Or what about Jan Hus who read much of his writing and paid with his life?  This was all before Luther.  Of course, there was also Savonarola, but if my memory is correct, he was a bit of a kook.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 117
Dennis Parish | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 5:32 PM

DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!

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Posts 130
Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 5:38 PM

George Somsel:

Willard Scott:
Luther was the Father of the Reformation. Have you studied why The roman church needed Reformation?

Need I remind you of the "Morningstar of the Reformation", John Wycliff?  Or what about Jan Hus who read much of his writing and paid with his life?  This was all before Luther.  Of course, there was also Savonarola, but if my memory is correct, he was a bit of a kook.

Point taken. Edited accordingly. It was not my intention to minimize the contribution of any other reformer. My only defense is that Luther is the one we were discussing. Now that Wycliff and Huss are included in the discussion, I might point out that they, also, saw the papacy as Antichrist. Thanks for pointing out my oversight. 

http://www.amazon.com/Martin-Luther-Father-Reformation-Signature/dp/0756515939

Posts 3767
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 5:58 PM

Dennis Parish:

Do not feed the troll!

i'd say he's pretty much learned to do it himself . . . Surprise

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 26544
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 6:39 PM

Willard Scott:
My only defense is that Luther is the one we were discussing.

May I remind you that this thread is on Mormon resources - not Luther, not the papacy etc.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 6:50 PM

If people insist on harping on Reformed doctrine in a thread on Mormons, can we at least limit it to the Latter Day Saints Reformed Church? The Mormon Studies Collection is missing any coverage on that branch. I would surely welcome a few books explaining the differences.

What  Wycliff, Luther and the Popes have to do with this thread escapes me! Hmm

 VV     TROLL ALERT!    VV

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 130
Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 6:55 PM

MJ. Smith:

 

May I remind you that this thread is on Mormon resources - not Luther, not the papacy etc.

     Yes, You may.Big Smile 
MJ. Smith:
You are aware, I assume, that there are others than the bishop of Rome that use the title Pope? hint: check out the North African churches.
MJ. Smith:

Posts 1497
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 7:21 PM

Willard Scott:

Joshua G:

I think it is clear that Logos intends these resources to be used for apologetic reasons - much like with the Islamic collection. I would have an issue with Logos marketing and labeling the Book of Mormon as a "Christian" resource. However, they have not - so I am fine with this collection. 

 

The same with the Catholic Collection?

 

 

No. The Catholic collection is not specifically intended for apologetic reasons, however; I am sure that many Logos users will pick it up for such reasons. It is clear that Logos considers the Roman Catholic faith a legitimate and valid "Christian" faith and the Mormon faith not. They have created and marketed a Roman Catholic base package along with a video series that quote "provides you with important insights and tips concerning how to use Logos within a Catholic Scripture study methodology".

Now if Logos created a Mormon base package along with a video series that helped Mormons use Logos within a Mormon Scripture study methodology - that would be a different story. This would be Logos clearly promoting the propagation of the Mormon faith as a legitimate "Christian" faith. To me this would be unacceptable. Could Logos do this? Yes. But because of the nature of their product - namely the Bible - many of its users would be offended and outraged. Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.


Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 7:41 PM

Looking at => http://www.logos.com/product/16021/mormon-studies-collection noticed Blood Atonement and the Origin of Plural Marriage: A Discussion has two authors, including: "Richard C. Evans was a member of the First Presidency of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He was later excommunicated from the Mormon Church for denying that God and Christ visited Joseph Smith."

Likewise noticed Mormon Studies Collection (45 vols.) has three volumes about systematic theology of Mormon doctrine.

Super Tramp:
... can we at least limit it to the Latter Day Saints Reformed Church? The Mormon Studies Collection is missing any coverage on that branch. I would surely welcome a few books explaining the differences.

Appears reformed branch has existed for 10 years, which is different than fundamentalist branch.  Also 

Searching Logos.com and Vryso.com for Mormon did not find any reformed nor reorganized Mormon resources; did find something to add to my wish list.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 26544
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 7:49 PM

KS4J - I innocently thought I'd throw together a short timeline of the LDS only to find it wouldn't be short - or is my source not trustworthy?:

The following list of dissident groups is taken from the book Divergent Paths of Restoration:

FOUNDED BETWEEN 1830 AND 1844

  • Pure Church of Christ, Wycam Clark, 1831
  • The Independent Church, Hoton, 1832
  • Church of Christ, Ezra Booth, 1836
  • Church of Christ, Warren Parrish, 1837
  • The Church of Jesus Christ, the Bride, The Lamb's Wife, George M. Hinkle, 1840
  • Church of Christ, Hyrum Page, 1842
  • Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, F. Gladden Bishop
  • True Church of Jessu Christ of Latter Day Saints, Law, Foster, Higbee, 1844
  • Church of Christ, William Chubby

NON-EXTANT MOVEMENTS FOUNDED 1844-1860

  • Church of Christ / Church of Jesus Christ of the Children of Zion, Sidney Rigdon, 1844
  • Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, James Emmett, 1844
  • Church of Christ, S. B. Stoddard, Leonard Rich, James Bump, 1845
  • Indian Mormon, 1846
  • Church of Christ, William McLellin, David Whitmer, 1847
  • Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, William Smith, 1847
  • Congregation of Jehovah's Presbytery of Zion, Charles B. Thompson, 1848
  • Church of Christ, James C. Brewster, 1848
  • Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Lyman Wight, 1849
  • The Bride, The Lamb's Wife or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Jacob Syfritt, 1850
  • Church of Christ, Hazen Aldrich, 1851

EXTANT MOVEMENTS

Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, James J. Strang, 1844

  • Church of Christ, Aaron Smith, 1846
  • Church of the Messiah, George J. Adams, 1861
  • Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)
  • Holy Church of Jesus Christ, Alexandre R. Caffiaux
  • House of Ephraim and House of Manasseh of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Jerry Sheppard
  • The True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, David L. Roberts
  • Marriage Counseling Group
  • Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, John J. Hajicek
  • Strangite Believers in Pennsylvania

Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Brigham Young, 1847

  • Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or Church of the First Born, Joseph Morris, 1861
  • The Prophet Cainan or Church of Jesus Christ of the Saints of the Most High God, George Williams, 1862
  • Morrisite Group, John Livingston, 1864
  • Church of Zion, William S. Godbe, 1868
  • Church of the First Born, George S. Dove, 1874
  • Priesthood Groups (Fundamentalists), 1890
  • United Order of Equality, Ephraim Peterson, 1909
  • The Church of Jesus Christ of Israel, J. H. Sherwood
  • Order of Aaron, Maurice L. Glendenning
  • Church of Freedom of Latter Day Saints, 1950s
  • Zion's Order of the Sons of Levi, Marl V. Kilgore, 1951
  • The Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Joel F. LeBaron
  • The Church of the Firstborn, Ross W. LeBaron, 1955
  • Perfected Church of Jesus Christ of Immaculate Latter Day Saints, William C. Conway, 1958
  • Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, John Forsgren, 1960
  • Church of Jesus Christ, William Goldman, 1960
  • LDS Scripture Researchers/Believe God Society, Sherman Russell Lloyd, 1965
  • The Church of the Body and of the Spirit of Jessu Christ, Max Powers, 1965
  • United Order of the Saints of Guadeloupe, Michel Gamiette, 1966
  • United Order of the Family of Christ, David E. Desmond, 1966
  • Split from Zion's Order of the Sons of Levi, Eldon Taylor, 1969
  • Homosexual Church of Jesus Christ, Denver, Colorado, 1972
  • Latter Day Saints Church, N.S. Park, 1972
  • The Church of the Lamb of God, Ervil M. LeBaron, 1972
  • The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Mikhail Krupenia, 1972
  • The New Jerusalem Group, Kathryn Carter, 1972
  • The Watchmen on the Towers of Latter Day Israel, Miltenberg, Braun, 1973
  • Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly, Alexnader Joseph, 1974
  • Evangelical Church of Christ, Church of the New Covenant in Christ, John W. Bryant, 1974
  • Split form Zion's Order of the Sons of Levi, Barton Kilgore, 1975
  • Affirmation, 1975
  • Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Robert Simons, 1975
  • Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Bruce Wakeham, 1975
  • Aaronic Order Break-off, 1977
  • Christ's Church, Inc., Gerald Peterson, 1978
  • Church of Jesus Christ, Art Bulla, 1978
  • The Restorers or School of the Prophets, Robert C. Crossfield, 1979
  • Zion's First International Church, LeeAnn Walker, 1980
  • The Free Will Mormon Church, Franklin Lee Coleman, 1980
  • Church of Jesus Christ, Jorge Mora, 1981
  • Sons Ahman Israel, Davied Israel, 1981
  • Samoan LDS Church, New Zealand, 1981
  • The Millennial Church of Jesus Christ, Leo P. Evoniuk, 1981
  • Peyote Way Church of God, Immanuel P. Trujillo, 1981
  • The Chruch of Jesus Christ of the Saints in Zion, Ken Asay, 1984
  • Break from the Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly, 1984
  • Church of Jesus Christ of All Latter-day Saints or Restoration Church of Jesus Christ, Antonio A. Feliz, 1985
  • Church of Christ of Latter-day Saints, Robert P. Madison, 1985
  • Church of Christ the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Siegfried J. Widmar, 1985
  • Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Fundamentalists, Wight Family, 1985
  • Mormon Fundamentalists, England, Alan and Marian Munn, 1986
  • Churchof Jesus Christ Omnipotent, 1987
  • Community of Zion, Central Utah Division
  • Church of the First Born, General Assembly

Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ, Alpheus Cutler, 1853

  • Church of Jesus Christ, Clyde Fletcher, 1953
  • The Restored Church of Jesus Christ, Eugene O. Walton, 1979

Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, 1851-1860

  • Church of the Christian Brotherhood, Richard C. Evans, 1917
  • The Church of Christ, the Order of Zion, John Zahnd, 1918
  • The Church of Jesus Christ, Thomas W. Williams, 1925
  • Church of Jesus Christ Restored, Stanley M. King, 1970
  • New Jerusalem Church of Jesus Christ, Barney Fuller, 1975
  • Church of Christ Restored, Paul Fishel, 1976
  • True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Forrest Toney, 1980
  • Church of the Restoration or Churches of Christ in Zion, Robert Chambers, 1981
  • Lamanite Ministries for Christ or New Covenant Ministries for Christ, 1984
  • Restoration Branches Movement, 1984
  • Church of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, A. Lee Abramson, 1985
  • Church of Jesus Christ, Zion's Branch, John Cato, 1986
  • Church of Christ, David Clark, 1986
  • Independent Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Christopher C. Warren, 1986
  • Native Indian Church

Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ, William Bickerton, 1862

  • Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ, Allen Wright, 1907
  • Primitive Church of Jesus Christ, James Caldwell, 1914

Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of Church of Christ (Temple Lot), Granville Hedrick, 1863

  • Church of Christ, Independent, Informal, Frank F. Wipper, 1927
  • The Church of Christ, Otto Fetting, 1929
  • Church of Christ, P.A. Ely, 1929
  • Church of Christ, C.W. Humphrey, 1929
  • Church of Christ, Samuel Wood, E.J. Trapp, 1930
  • Church of Christ (Restored), A.C. DeWolf, 1936
  • Church of Christ, E. E. Long, Thomas Nerren, 1936
  • Church of Christ, Paul Hilgendorf, 1942
  • The Church of Christ With the Elijah Message, W. A. D. Draves, 1943
  • Church of Christ, Pauline Hancock, 1946
  • Antarctica Development Interests or the New American's Mount Zion, John Leabo, 1955
  • Church of Christ at Zion's Retreat, Gerald Hall, 1973
  • The Church of Israel, Dan Gayman, 1973
  • Break from the Church of Christ (Hancock), Davison, Michigan, 1973
  • The Church of Christ, Restored Gospel 1929, 1985

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 130
Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 7:58 PM

Joshua G:
This would be Logos clearly promoting the propagation of the Mormon faith as a legitimate "Christian" faith. To me this would be unacceptable. Could Logos do this? Yes. But because of the nature of their product - namely the Bible - many of its users would be offended and outraged. Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.
There are Mormons who post on these forums who would find it unacceptable that you find their faith unacceptable. There are Christians on these forums that are offended and outraged that Rome is still considered a Christian faith, after all the reformers, and Christians in general have been persecuted and killed because of their attempt to expose the papacy for what it is.
Joshua G:

Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.

 

When was that vote taken?

 

Posts 1497
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 7:59 PM

Wow...this Mormon temple is crazy.

Posts 1497
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 8:12 PM

Willard Scott:

When was that vote taken?

No vote. But there was a thread a while back that brought this issue up. I gave my opinion and got slammed for it. I was basically standing alone. However, the thread was started by a troll who just wanted to promote hatred instead of starting an honest debate.

 

Posts 130
Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 8:15 PM

Joshua G:
I was basically standing alone.
So, then, You are the majority of which you speak?

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 8:16 PM

Willard Scott:

Joshua G:
This would be Logos clearly promoting the propagation of the Mormon faith as a legitimate "Christian" faith. To me this would be unacceptable. Could Logos do this? Yes. But because of the nature of their product - namely the Bible - many of its users would be offended and outraged. Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.
There are Mormons who post on these forums who would find it unacceptable that you find their faith unacceptable. There are Christians on these forums that are offended and outraged that Rome is still considered a Christian faith, after all the reformers, and Christians in general have been persecuted and killed because of their attempt to expose the papacy for what it is.
Joshua G:

Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.

 

When was that vote taken?

 

It ws not merely reformers who were persecuted and killed for their faith.  Catholics were as well in non-Catholic areas.  It must be remembered that those were harsh times.  While that does not excuse the persecution, it does explain why it happened.  Why should we continue the bitterness today due to what happened in the past?  

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; do not claim to be wiser than you are. Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” No, “if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:16–21, NRSV)

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 28 2012 8:16 PM

MJ. Smith:

KS4J - I innocently thought I'd throw together a short timeline of the LDS only to find it wouldn't be short - or is my source not trustworthy?:

The following list of dissident groups is taken from the book Divergent Paths of Restoration:

Noticed book was published in 1982, Reformed Mormon web site http://www.reformmormonism.org/aboutus.htm has more recent history.

Wonder about suggesting book Divergent Paths of Restoration for Logos consideration ?

Keep Smiling Smile

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