Mormon Studies Collection

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 9:17 PM

Willard Scott:
You are brazen enough to counsel me about bitterness?, When you posted this a few months back?

Yes, since this is something which is incorporated in the very foundational documents of Islam and today held by many Muslims today.  While not all Muslims share this position, there is a significant group which does and which threatens not only the foundations of societies historically based on Christianity, but Judaism as well.  This is not simply a disagreement with an historical position.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 130
Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 9:34 PM

 

George Somsel:
While not all Muslims share this position, there is a significant group which does
I commend you for softening your stance since February. (Emphasis Mine.) >>
George Somsel:

  We have an enemy of Jesus Christ which is on the march in the form of Islam.  I do not say "radical Islam", but ALL Islam.  We see expurgated versions of the Koran / Quran in English (we even have one in Logos).  These have been cleaned up so as not to alarm those who speak English.  Make no mistake about it, those who follow Islam do not guide themselves by the politically correct English versions.  There was recently an article in the National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260288/who-attacked-lara-logan-and-why-andrew-c-mccarthy) in which Andrew McCarthy asks "Who Attacked Lara Logan, and Why?" then answers the question he has posed.  It lies in passages such as Surah 4:23-24.  In these the offensive material has largely been toned down.  They intend to subjugate the Christian world and brutalize any who will not submit to Islam.  We have not faced such a danger since the Moors overran Spain and threatened France and also were knocking at the very doors of Vienna.  They subjected much of the previously Christian world to Islam including Northern Africa (including Egypt), Asia Minor, and what is today Syria and Iraq.  Will Europe and the United States be next?  They will if we fight amongst ourselves.

I would encourage Logos to do its own translation of the Quran in a very faithful version -- assiduously avoiding softening the harsh parts.  This would make clear to all the insidious nature of Islam.  Its prophet is a false prophet, a prophet of Satan himself, and a paedophile.  Its god is not the God of the bible but Satan himself since God would not countenance that set forth in the Quran.  Islam is interested in submission (much like the Obama regime), not in conviction.  Remember:  "He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Posts 1495
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 9:36 PM

Ben:

"If a person or religious organization practices the theology of Mormonism"

The CoC/RLDS Temple neither practices the liturgy nor the theology. But as you know, that goes beyond the purpose of this board.

Looks like someone needs to correct the wiki then...

 

Posts 1495
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 9:48 PM

Super Tramp:

Joshua G:
If a person or religious organization practices the theology of Mormonism - could they not be considered Mormon?

Since infant baptism is a Catholic doctrine would all who practice infant baptism be called Catholic?  What I think Ben is saying is, there is enough difference between the LDS church based in Utah and the RLDS church based in Missouri 

That is why we can't go with a one-label-fits-all, shotgun approach. 

This appears to be a false analogy. Using Protestantism (instead of infant baptism) would have been a better comparison. Much like Mormonism it too is very broad and includes many religious organizations.

 

Posts 55
J Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 12:13 AM

I hope that the current versions would be on Logos too, but I doubt it. The publisher for official LDS books is Desseret Books, it is also the major publisher for most “un-official” books too. Desseret Books owns their own gospel study website, which it promotes. Logos is way better, in all aspects: more selection, don’t need to on the internet to use it, way better customer and tech support, a forum to ask questions about how to use the program; I could go on but the point is that if the book is not in Public Domain than Logos most likely won’t get it.

Posts 3767
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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 6:34 AM

Joshua G:

Super Tramp:

Joshua G:
If a person or religious organization practices the theology of Mormonism - could they not be considered Mormon?

Since infant baptism is a Catholic doctrine would all who practice infant baptism be called Catholic?  What I think Ben is saying is, there is enough difference between the LDS church based in Utah and the RLDS church based in Missouri 

That is why we can't go with a one-label-fits-all, shotgun approach. 

This appears to be a false analogy. Using Protestantism (instead of infant baptism) would have been a better comparison. Much like Mormonism it too is very broad and includes many religious organizations.

 

i get the basic point, either way.

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 7:00 AM

Joshua G:
This appears to be a false analogy. Using Protestantism (instead of infant baptism) would have been a better comparison. Much like Mormonism it too is very broad and includes many religious organizations.

That was precisely my point. Your labels are applied too broadly to be of any use. There are  Catholics who baptize by immersion. There are charismatic Catholics & Southern Baptists. There are Methodists and Baptists with openly gay worship leaders. The majority of Protestants believe in a "catholic" church (one universal worldwide body of believers.) Wikipedia calls Southern Baptists the largest Protestant denomination in America. Yet they will tell you they are neither Protestant nor a denomination. That is proof again why we can't trust labels other people stick to groups they don't belong to. 

It serves no purpose in the forums to continually try to divide with labels. This thread is about the Mormon Studies Collection but a few posters just can't help but pull out their label makers. If there was a thread on banana pudding they would probably find reason to criticize Rome for it.

If we want honest labels try these:

  • Living versus Dead (pretty easy to tell if somebody is lying about which side they belong to.)
  • Male versus Female (not quite as easy to determine as the Live/Dead label)
  • Righteous versus Sinner (this one unifies us all and will capsize the ship.)
  • Logos users versus Not (how about we respect everyone here regardless of their label?)

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Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 7:41 AM

Super Tramp:
If there was a thread on banana pudding they would probably find reason to criticize Rome for it.

If? There was and it was.

Super Tramp:

If we want honest labels try these:

  • Living versus Dead (pretty easy to tell if somebody is lying about which side they belong to.)

Unfortunately Rev 3:1 complicates the matter. As does Lk 20:38. Stick out tongue

Super Tramp:

  • Righteous versus Sinner (this one unifies us all and will capsize the ship.)
Fortunately there is One who is righteous enough to weigh down the other side and keep the ship afloat. Smile

 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 7:58 AM

fgh:
Fortunately there is One who is righteous enough to weigh down the other side and keep the ship afloat. Smile

Smile....................just beautiful...........................Wilted Flower

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Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 8:12 AM

Joshua G:

Wow...this Mormon temple is crazy.

Temple? Are you sure that isn't Black and Decker's HQ?

Posts 4625
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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 8:56 AM

fgh:
Fortunately there is One who is righteous enough to weigh down the other side and keep the ship afloat. Smile

Wonderful!  Thank you for the refreshing and Gospel-Centred Post!          *smile*            Peace to all!                  and ..         Joy!

                                                            Ephesians 4:1-3

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 32
Silver Hawk | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 9:25 AM

 

George Somsel:
Islam is interested in submission (much like the Obama regime), not in conviction.
Political rhetoric aside, You make a valid point. A point supported by Scripture. "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Islam is not interested in proselytizing infidels, (unless they are disturbed enough to wear exploding underwear.) Their struggle is a very earth-based, greed driven agenda. Most of the time, It is easy to identify , and avoid  being drawn into radical Islam.

There are other professed Christian organizations who set out to deceive believers by re-writing the very Word of God. One such blasphemous  organization claims the right, and the power to re-write the portion written by God's own finger, to accommodate their Idol/sun-worshiping, baptized paganism.

Please note that my animosity is not with the parishioners, but with the Head of the beast. ... The deceiver, not the deceived.

 Acts 20:29-30

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 9:39 AM

Silver Hawk:
One such blasphemous  organization claims the right, and the power to re-write the portion written by God's own finger,

Only one??     I maintain there are thousands of "Christian" organizations that claim they have an exclusive handle on the truth and the divine right to kick God off His throne and ignore His commandment to  "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." 

Just a casual reading of forum threads will reveal many such usurpers. Surprise

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Posts 32
Silver Hawk | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 9:53 AM

Super Tramp:

Silver Hawk:
One such blasphemous  organization claims the right, and the power to re-write the portion written by God's own finger,

Only one??

You know of another "Christian" organization that has re-written the 10 Commandments? Compare the rendering of the 10 commandments in the Catechism and the douay rheims  to all other translations, and "original" transcripts. Strange, the part about bowing to idols is missing. They split the 10th commandment in order to appear to still have 10.

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 10:07 AM

Silver Hawk:
You know of another "Christian" organization that has re-written the 10 Commandments?

I know no poster in this thread has kept all 10 of the commandments. 

John 8:7      

Fortunately, I don't have to give account for the sins of others. So I don't concern myself too much with keeping tabs on them.

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Posts 32
Silver Hawk | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 10:19 AM

Super Tramp:
I know no poster in this thread has kept all 10 of the commandments. 
You are dodging the issue. I did not question the ability of individuals to keep the Commandments. I questioned the right of an organization to alter what God wrote with his finger, To better serve their agenda.

(Eph 5:11) Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

 

 

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 10:21 AM

Silver Hawk:

You know of another "Christian" organization that has re-written the 10 Commandments? Compare the rendering of the 10 commandments in the Catechism and the douay rheims  to all other translations, and "original" transcripts. Strange, the part about bowing to idols is missing. They split the 10th commandment in order to appear to still have 10.

 

You are dead wrong on this.  What you are doing is to fault the Douay-Rheims translation because it doesn't translate as you would like. The Hebrew word תִשׁתַּחְוֶה  which is translated as "bow down" is translated as "adore" in the Douay-Rheims.  While חוה is usually translated as "bow down", the LXX translates it with προσκυνέω which can mean to "prostrate oneself" or "worship."  Similarly, the Vulgate from which Douay-Rheims is translated renders it as adorabis which is "honor" or "adore" (translated by Jerome—4th and 5th cent).  I think your opposition to the Catholic Church is blinding you to the truth.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 10:26 AM

Silver Hawk:
I questioned the right of an organization

I question your right to question an organization in a thread about another organization. You are dodging the thread topic! 

...

Silver Hawk:
To better serve their agenda.
 Oh, and I have no agenda,  except maybe to return this thread to the original topic of the Mormon Studies Collection.

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Posts 32
Silver Hawk | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 10:30 AM

George Somsel:
תִשׁתַּחְוֶה  which is translated as "bow down" is translated as "adore" in the Douay-Rheims.  While חוה is usually translated as "bow down", the LXX translates it with προσκυνέω which can mean to "prostrate oneself" or "worship." 
Whether you prefer "adore", "prostate oneself",   "worship", or "honor", The command is to Not pay that homage to idols. That admonition has been removed from the translation.

Posts 117
Dennis Parish | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 10:31 AM

DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!

May God grant you His peace Peter.

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