Mormon Studies Collection

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Posts 1496
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 10:16 PM

Super Tramp:

The stereotyping going on here is when you stick the wrong label on somebody and they happen to care about being misidentified.

People are sensitive about being misidentified. 

I can agree here. Do the Community of Christ members not consider themselves "Mormon"?

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 4:29 AM

Super Tramp:
I referred to a co-worker as Hispanic and she went ballistic.

 

ohhh yeaaaah.  the old "are you Hispanic, Latino/a, Spanish, or . . . it does get confusing, even for Spanish-speaking people from carribbean, central- and south american countries.  had many conversations about this when I lived in miami.

next time, refer to her as "Boricuan" and on the sly, tell her you think "red beans and rice are da bomb--black beans and rice just don't compare."  you'll be back in  like Flynn.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 5:07 AM

Joshua G:
 
Super Tramp:
 The stereotyping going on here is when you stick the wrong label on somebody and they happen to care about being misidentified. People are sensitive about being misidentified.  
 

I can agree here. Do the Community of Christ members not consider themselves "Mormon"? 

I imagine they do but probably not any more than Catholics consider their Pope a godly leader and their church the correct one. When the Japanese government processes census data they classify Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptist and even Unitarians as "Christians."  The Unitarians probably object stronger than you do to that all-inclusive label. (That is kind of humorous considering their all-inclusive stance. Big Smile I knew a Unitarian mayor who became a good friend in spite of our differences.)

 Labels are only useful when self-applied. My black co-workers would call themselves the "n" word but if anyone else called them that there was going to be a problem. If I call a US President a "liar," it is an accusation. If he calls himself a "liar," it is a confession. There is a big difference in how the two identical labels are received. So until a person labels themselves as "lost" or "heretical" in doctrine they are not going to be open to attempting change. Just my 2¢

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 5:28 AM

Super Tramp:
Wikipedia calls Southern Baptists the largest Protestant denomination in America. Yet they will tell you they are neither Protestant nor a denomination.

Altogether, I have been a member of an SBC congregation for about 15 years, and I have never heard this claim.

However, that is beside the point of this thread. I am personally pleased that Logos is producing Mormon materials—just wish they could give us resources that were more up-to-date. If you seek to criticize a group, do so from their own sources, not from the dreams of an outsider.

Having served as Pastor of both SBC and IFB Churches, I can truthfully tell you that the critics on both sides of this divide are just plain ignorant.

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 5:39 AM

There is other material about/by mormons in Logos.  Check it out if you want something more up to date

Posts 18668
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 6:03 AM

This scholarly study might be a good addition to Logos alongside the Mormon Studies Collection:

The Refiner's Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644-1844 by John L. Brooke (Cambridge University Press, 1994)

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 6:06 AM

nicky crane:

There is other material about/by mormons in Logos.  Check it out if you want something more up to date

 

was aware of more up-to-date material about Mormons, but did not know of anything by Mormons. Have to check that out. Material by outsiders—even ex-Mormons— is always suspect until it can be checked against primary sources.

Posts 1365
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 6:11 AM

Labels get used in different ways.

My understanding is that CoC members do not refer to themselves as Mormon, which they generally reserve for the Utah-based church. They have never done in their one Temple (more of a Protestant-style sanctuary) what LDS do (see my previous comment about liturgy), and they have generally rejected most distinctive differences separating LDS from Protestants.

Moreover, there's been a concerted PR effort to get newspapers and such to avoid the term "Mormon fundamentalist" for small polygamist groups, since they all split off 100 years ago, and anyone LDS is excommunicated for polygamy. However, they do claim the term "Mormon." Problem is, you'll likely never meet one, so it does not do favors to conflate very small backwoods polygamists with, say, Harry Reid or Mitt Romney or any other Mormon you're likely to actually meet on a day-to-day basis.

So there may well be groups in the restorationist-Book-of-Mormon tradition who aren't legitimately called Mormons, some who want to retain it (but others dispute the legitimacy), and so on.

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

Posts 1365
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 6:17 AM

Jack Caviness:

nicky crane:

There is other material about/by mormons in Logos.  Check it out if you want something more up to date

was aware of more up-to-date material about Mormons, but did not know of anything by Mormons. Have to check that out. Material by outsiders—even ex-Mormons— is always suspect until it can be checked against primary sources.

Checking against primary sources is laudable and necessary, but there's also the question of worldview. When crossing major cultural/religious/linguistic lines, we always need to be careful to ask how an insider understands this.  I can pull some quote from a source, have it be accurate, and still completely misunderstand its meaning within the community it belongs to. Much apologetic material fails to do so. An interesting article on this is Mosser and Owen, "Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It", Trinity Journal (Fall '98, p179-205), and imo, all of the Mormon material published by Logos falls to their criticism.

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

Posts 117
Dennis Parish | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 6:36 AM

The Logos wiki Almanac of the Christian World has never really taken off; It has five listings for Mennonites, one for Mormons. (Just noticing; no real point)

It is worth obtaining the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 3rd edition, either in Logos or in print (now quite affordable). As an sample, the entry for Baptists.

Baptists. One of the largest Protestant and Free Church communions, to be found in every Continent. [JACK, SOME HISTORIANS SAY YOU CANNOT BE BOTH, CITING PERSECUTION OF FREE CHURCH COMMUNIONS BY CALVIN AND ZWINGLI. THESE HISTORIANS WOULD LIKELY PLACE BAPTISTS IN THE FREE CHURCH OR RADICAL REFORMATION FAMILY OF DENOMINATIONS]. Its total membership in 2002 was over 45 million, with a much larger community strength. The origins of the Baptists in modern times have been traced to the action of John *Smyth, a *Separatist exile in Amsterdam who, in 1609, reinstituted the Baptism of committed believers as the basis of fellowship of a gathered Church. But Smyth was under *Mennonite influence, and Baptist beginnings have also been traced back to the *Anabaptist wing of the Continental *Reformation (esp. in Zurich), to the protests of medieval sects against prevailing baptismal theory and practice, and to the period of the early Church and the NT. Smyth and his associates were concerned to reestablish the Baptism of believers according to its NT meaning, in the interests of a true doctrine of the nature of the Church.

The first Baptist Church in England consisted of certain members of Smyth’s Church who returned to London in 1612 under the leadership of Thomas *Helwys. From this a number of other Churches sprang in Stuart and Commonwealth times. *Arminian in theology with a connectional polity, they came to be known as ‘General Baptists’. In 1633 the adoption of believers’ Baptism by a group of *Calvinistic London Separatists, who were members of the Church which had Henry Jacob as pastor, led to the rise of ‘Particular Baptist’ Churches in many parts of the country. About the same time *immersion became their usual mode of Baptism, instead of *affusion or sprinkling, again in obedience to the NT. These Particular (Calvinistic) Baptist Churches were independent or congregational in polity but gave regular expression to their inter-Church relationships through Associations, which have continued to be a vital part of Baptist Church life.

Many Baptists were associated with the more radical spiritual and political movements of the 17th cent. They were pioneers in the quest for freedom of conscience and religious liberty. After the *Restoration they moved close to the *Presbyterians and *Independents and became recognized as one of the *Three Denominations of Protestant Dissenters. John *Bunyan was an outstanding figure among them and was important not only for his writings but because he encouraged a pattern of local Church membership which could include Baptists and Paedobaptists. From the mid-17th cent. there were Baptist Churches in the American colonies. The settlement of Roger *Williams at Providence, Rhode Island, and the Church formed there in 1639 on Baptist principles is generally regarded as the beginning of American Baptist history. A small 17th-cent. group who became known as Sabbatarian or Seventh Day Baptists, and whose descendants are still represented in both England and North America, regarded the Fourth *Commandment as requiring rest and worship on the seventh, not the first, day of the week.

In the 18th cent. many of the General Baptist Churches in England came under *Unitarian influences and ultimately ceased to maintain their witness to believers’ Baptism. But Dan Taylor (1738–1816), under the stimulus of the Evangelical Revival, in 1770 formed a ‘New Connexion’ among them, which maintained a vigorous life, and a century later united with the main stream of Baptist witness. The *Baptist Missionary Society, formed in 1792 by ministers of the Northamptonshire Association of Particular Baptists at the call of William *Carey, initiated the modern movement of missionary expansion among Protestant Churches. Northamptonshire Baptists had been stirred by reports of the *Great Awakening in New England. This revival quickened the Baptist Churches of America and led to the beginnings of the rapid and spectacular growth of Baptists in that continent. Baptist preachers were in the van as the frontier was carried westwards. As a result of their missionary zeal Baptists became the largest religious community in many of the southern States, and among the *Black Churches of the USA about two-thirds of the members are Baptists. By 2002 there were over 33 million Baptists in North America. They are organized in several Conventions, the Southern Baptist Convention being the largest and most conservative. American Baptists have been noted for their vigorous missionary work, Adoniram *Judson of Burma being their pioneer. Other notable American Baptists have included the historian K. S. Latourette (1884–1968), Martin Luther *King, and Billy *Graham. In South America there are nearly 1.4 million Baptists with another 449,000 in Central America and the Caribbean.

The rigid Calvinism of the 18th cent. was gradually modified not only in America, but also in England, though not without some protests. There remained in England a number of ‘Strict Baptist’ Churches, strongly Calvinist in theology, where Communion was, and indeed still is, restricted to baptized believers. In the 19th cent. most other Baptist Churches welcomed all believers to Communion, many also adopting ‘open membership’ after the Bunyan pattern. The increase in their numbers more than kept pace with the growth in population, and from their ranks came outstanding preachers such as Robert *Hall, C. H. *Spurgeon, Alexander *Maclaren, and John *Clifford. The Baptist Union, formed in 1813, was gradually transformed into the Baptist Union of Great Britain. Its modern development owed much to the leadership of J. H. *Shakespeare, who was secretary for over 25 years (1898–1924). In Britain there are some 195,000 Church members. Baptists in England and three Baptist Associations in Wales shared in the Free Church movement and are members of the *Free Churches Group, Churches Together in England, the *Council of Churches for Britain and Ireland (as they were of the *British Council of Churches), and of the *World Council of Churches. The Baptist Union of Wales is a member of CYTUN (Churches Together in Wales). The Baptists of *Scotland were much influenced by the life and teaching of Archibald McLean (1733–1812). He and his followers kept close to the NT in both doctrine and practice and were at one time known as ‘Scotch Baptists’ or ‘*Sandemanian Baptists’. Their work provided one of the sources of the *Disciples of Christ. Baptists have been numerous in *Wales since John Myles (or Miles, 1621–84) organized the first Church at Ilston (1649) and Vavasour Powell (1617–70) acted as the leader of a band of itinerant evangelists. Their most famous preacher was Christmas Evans (1766–1838). There has been a considerable emigration of Baptists from Wales to the USA. Baptists in *Ireland trace their roots back to Churches founded by Baptist officers and chaplains in Oliver *Cromwell’s army and by settlers who remained there after the Restoration. These Churches, mainly of Particular Baptists with a leavening of General Baptists, survived through the 18th cent., later receiving support from English Particular Baptists.

In 1834 a Baptist Church was formed in Hamburg under the leadership of J. C. Oncken (1800–84) and from this came an extensive Baptist movement in Europe, spreading to Slavic-speaking people. Baptists were generally persecuted in Tsarist *Russia. They increased in numbers during the early years of the Soviet regime but later suffered from the general restrictions on religious freedom. In recent times their numbers have grown significantly, and they form the largest Protestant community in the countries of the former USSR, with some 332,000 Church members.

Baptist Churches were formed in *Australia and *New Zealand in the early 19th cent., and in the 20th cent. Baptist work expanded throughout Asia, Africa, and South America. Recent growth in Africa has been notable, with a membership of over 5.2 million. In 1905 the Baptist World Alliance was formed at a congress in London as a forum for international co-operation. It has several Commissions which deal with a variety of denominational concerns, including ecumenical relations. Its present headquarters is in McLean, Virginia.

In spite of their variety and individualism, most Baptists have remained strongly attached to the truths of evangelical Christianity. In their worship they follow in general the Reformed tradition. Their polity is a modified form of independency, with Churches held together in associations. Their ministers, or pastors, receive, in most countries, a careful training. Their oldest college in Britain (Bristol) traces its history back to the 1679 bequest of Edward Terrill. Regent’s Park College, of which H. Wheeler *Robinson was principal from 1920 to 1942, is now a Permanent Private Hall of *Oxford University. Many colleges and universities in America and elsewhere are under Baptist auspices. In ecumenical relationships Baptists have been hesitant about schemes for organic union, partly because of their concern to preserve their witness to believers’ Baptism and the freedom of the local Church from external rule as the ‘gathered community’; but they have been eager for partnership and co-operation with other Christians. Although only about 20 Baptist Conventions or Unions are members of the World Council of Churches, they comprise nearly 40 per cent of the world Baptist constituency.

[Bibliography Omitted.]

Cross, F. L., & Livingstone, E. A. (2005). The Oxford dictionary of the Christian Church (3rd ed. rev.) (155–156). Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press.

Posts 117
Dennis Parish | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 6:54 AM

Here is the bibliography from the Oxford Dictionary of Christianity brief article on Mormons.

The Mormons use the AV of the Bible, with certain retranslations by Smith. The Book of Mormon first pub. at Palmyra, NY, 1830; A Book of Commandments, comprising revelations to Smith and others, pub. at Independence, Mo., 1833; it was enlarged as Doctrine and Covenants (Kirtland, Oh., 1835); The Pearl of Great Price, which comprises selections from Smith’s writings, was first pub. in Liverpool, 1851; all these works are available in many edns. The large lit. on the Mormons incl. B. R. McConckie, Mormon Doctrine (Salt Lake City, 1958; 2nd edn., 1966); N. F. Furniss, The Mormon Conflict 1850–1859 (New Haven, Conn., 1960); J. B. Allen and G. M. Leonard, The Story of the Latter-day Saints (Salt Lake City, 1976; 2nd edn. [1992]); L. J. Arrington and D. Bitton, The Mormon Experience: A History of the Latter-day Saints (New York and London, 1979); R. Gottlieb and P. Wiley, America’s Saints: The Rise of Mormon Power (New York [1984]; repr. San Diego, New York, and London [1986]). J. Shipps, Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition (Urbana, Ill., and Chicago [1985]); P. L. Barlow, Mormons and the Bible: The Place of Latter-day Saints in American Religion (New York and Oxford, 1991); D. M. Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy (Salt Lake City, 1994); A. L. Mauss, The Angel and the Beehive: The Mormon Struggle with Assimilation (Urbana and Chicago, 1994); D. J. Davies, The Mormon Culture of Salvation (Aldershot [2000]); id., An Introduction to Mormonism (Cambridge, 2003).

On Joseph Smith, see Lucy Smith (mother), Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet and his Progenitors for many Generations (Liverpool, 1853); F. McK. Brodie, No Man Knows my History (New York, 1945; 2nd edn., 1971; London, 1963); R. L. Bushman, Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism (Urbana, Ill., and Chicago [1984]), with bibl.

Cross, F. L., & Livingstone, E. A. (2005). The Oxford dictionary of the Christian Church (3rd ed. rev.) (1122–1123). Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 6:57 AM

Interesting article, but it does contain a few inaccuracies. Since that is not the purpose of this thread, I will refrain from pointing them out—except for one.

Dennis Parish:
Their ministers, or pastors, receive, in most countries, a careful training.

Not true in the US among SBC & IFB (Independent Fundamental Baptist) Churches. Some have extensive training, but anyone at any time can rent a store front, invite in a few friends, adopt a constitution (or not), and become a new Baptist Church. Geeked

Posts 55
J Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 8:44 AM

Ben:

Jack Caviness:

nicky crane:

There is other material about/by mormons in Logos.  Check it out if you want something more up to date

was aware of more up-to-date material about Mormons, but did not know of anything by Mormons. Have to check that out. Material by outsiders—even ex-Mormons— is always suspect until it can be checked against primary sources.

Checking against primary sources is laudable and necessary, but there's also the question of worldview. When crossing major cultural/religious/linguistic lines, we always need to be careful to ask how an insider understands this.  I can pull some quote from a source, have it be accurate, and still completely misunderstand its meaning within the community it belongs to. Much apologetic material fails to do so. An interesting article on this is Mosser and Owen, "Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It", Trinity Journal (Fall '98, p179-205), and imo, all of the Mormon material published by Logos falls to their criticism.

.

Jack Caviness, you have a point, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is more than a church, it’s a culture, it can be hard at times to un-tangle church doctrine from church culture. It can be hard for an outsider to really understand some unique doctrines of the LDS church.

To be clear Mormon is a nickname that was picked up on from the Book of Mormon. For anyone that is interested on how to use the word Mormon, just click here

Posts 408
Ken Shawver | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 10:48 AM

If you are interested in apologetics and you have friends who are mormon and you want to discuss the "real" Jesus with them - not what is taught in mormonism. Then anything you can get your hands on to guide you and the converation is most helpful. I had electronic versions in L3 that would be great in L4.

Anything more on Jehovah Witnesses would be great to. I already have what is currently available.

In Christ,

Ken

Dell Studio 1555; 15.6 True Life LCD; Intel Core 2 Duo T6600 2.20 GHz, 2M Cache, 800 MHz FSB ; 500GB 5400 HDD; 8GB RAM, Win 10, Chrome 70

http://wiki.logos.com/

Posts 15805
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 11:58 AM

Searching Vyrso for Mormon finds four books => http://vyrso.com/products/search?q=mormon

Searching Logos for Mormon finds 37 results => http://www.logos.com/products/search?q=Mormon including Mormon Studies Collection (45 vols.) whose appearance started this thread.

Searching Logos for Jehovah Witness finds 24 results => http://www.logos.com/products/search?q=Jehovah+Witness

By the way, searching Logos.com for other search terms finds many more results (e.g. pray, peace, luther, jew, counsel, protestant, catholic, calvin, worship, hope, reformed, spirit, love, baptist, journal, doctrine, preach, evangelical, Jesus, seminary, commentary, testament, pastor, God, christian, theology) with theology having 4,029 results => http://www.logos.com/products/search?q=theology  Searching Logos by lowest price finds 7,595 results => http://www.logos.com/products/search?start=&sort=pricelo&pageSize=30 that currently has 21 resources for $ 0.00 (Free)

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 55
J Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 29 2012 3:49 PM

This may be too soon to ask, but will the Journal of Discourses and History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, have page numbers?

Posts 2331
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 31 2012 5:43 AM

I would like to see more bidders on this collection.

http://www.logos.com/product/16021/mormon-studies-collection

Posts 579
Andrew Baguley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 31 2012 6:35 AM

Is it worth emphasising that as these works are out of copyright, purchasing these works will not be giving money to Mormonism?  I suspect that the low number of bids reflects the low number of Mormons who use Logos and the low number of people who are not Mormons but can see the usefulness in having this set.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 31 2012 6:49 AM

Andrew Baguley:

Is it worth emphasising that as these works are out of copyright, purchasing these works will not be giving money to Mormonism?  I suspect that the low number of bids reflects the low number of Mormons who use Logos and the low number of people who are not Mormons but can see the usefulness in having this set.

I'm not convinced that the Mormons are that bad.  Yes, they have an extra book and some strange ideas, but how does that make them so very different from dispensationalists?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 579
Andrew Baguley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 31 2012 7:10 AM

Stoking the fires of controversy again, George?

So long as you didn't take my post as indicating that Mormons are bad, I'll walk away now.  I hope that wasn't implied in what I wrote, even if I suspect that some Logos users will hold that belief...

Note to all: Logos forums aren't for theology debates or putting others down...

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