how to search a greek phrase in any wordorder?

Page 1 of 2 (31 items) 1 2 Next >
This post has 30 Replies | 0 Followers

Posts 95
Jack Nørdam | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jan 29 2012 8:12 AM

I have tried to find a post about this, but I couldn't.

If I want to find 'in Christ Jesus' and the wordorder doesn't matter and the words do not need to stand next to each other - how do I do that the most simple way?

Posts 13368
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 8:53 AM

Could you explain in a little more detail what you're trying to achieve? You mention Greek in the title, but then the example is in English. And I'm not sure if phrases like "in Christ" or "in Jesus" or "in the Lord", or "in the Lord Jesus" meet your criteria.

If all you want to do is find the words "in" and "Christ" and "Jesus" in the same verse, that's easy. If you want to search for "in Christ Jesus" and "in Jesus Christ" at the same time, that's easy. But it sounds like you want something different from that, but I'm sorry that I'm not exactly clear what you want.

Posts 95
Jack Nørdam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 11:36 AM

Thank you for trying to understand me and my bad english Smile

 What I mean is that I want to find all possibilities for 'ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ', where all the words are representet in the verse, but not necessarily in that order or not even in a row. For example: 'We all live in the Lord Jesus Christ.' That one I want. But 'We all live in Christ', does not meet my criteria.

I tried the simple way, but got 196 results, many of them had nothing to do with 'in Jesus Christ', but had only for example 'in Christ'. I want all three words to be represented.

Does anyone understand me?

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 12:32 PM

This sounds ideal for using Syntax Search, as it gives the ability to specify things "unordered".  See attached graphic, be sure to click "Matching skips levels" for the three Words.

This search only produces 1 result, 1 Tim 3:12. Do you know of more? Seeing other instances can help someone produce the proper Syntax query.  I did an English Bible search using "Near" (live NEAR Jesus NEAR Christ) and this is the only one.  You get more by searching with "Match all word forms" selected, or by using the lemma of the words in Greek, but then it produces results like Rom 6:11, "alive to God in Christ Jesus" which is not what you want.

If this helps great, if not maybe you can clarify further what you want or give some other verses as examples.

Posts 9097
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 12:34 PM

Have you tried ἐν AND Χριστῷ AND Ἰησοῦ ? This seems to me to be what you want . It should find all verses where the three words appear but not necessarily in that order (199 results in the NA27).

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 13368
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 12:35 PM

Jack Nørdam:
Does anyone understand me?

Yes, I understand. There are two ways in which we can try to do this. The first is through a Bible or Morph search, the second is through a syntax search. A syntax search will be more accurate, but a Bible/Morph search is easier to construct. I'll show you the Morph search now, and I'll come back to you a bit later on the syntax search. I'll talk you through the search:

First, we need to search for the phrase Jesus Christ. We could use "Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ", but that wouldn't find all the morphological forms. We need to search for the lemma. You can't put lemmas into phrases, so we have to use the following criteria

lemma:Χριστός BEFORE 1 WORD lemma:Ἰησοῦς

However, you've specified that the words could be the other way around too, so it's best if we change the BEFORE to a WITHIN. WITHIN means BEFORE or AFTER, so it now looks like this:

lemma:Χριστός WITHIN 1 WORD lemma:Ἰησοῦς

But we also want to search for ἐν. We can use a similar syntax:

lemma:ἐν BEFORE 4 WORDS lemma:Χριστός WITHIN 1 WORD lemma:Ἰησοῦς

The 4 I've chosen is rather arbitrary, you can experiment with different numbers. If you set it too large you'll get logs of false positives. If you set it too small, you'll miss some genuine answers.

Posts 35
Daniel Luke Gonzalez | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 12:36 PM

Why don't you try "ἐν AND Χριστῷ AND Ἰησοῦ", this seems to be pulling up the verses that you were wanting. You can also go to the logos wiki (http://wiki.logos.com/Detailed_Search_Help) when in need of additional help for things like this.

EDIT: Also, make sure to limit your search results to within a particular Greek New Testament. When doing this search in the UBS 4th edition, I received 199 hits.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 12:44 PM

Morph Search for

lemma:ἐν BEFORE 2 WORDS (lemma:Χριστός,lemma:Ἰησοῦς)

finds a variety of phrases:

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 13368
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 12:47 PM

Mark Barnes:
I'll show you the Morph search now, and I'll come back to you a bit later on the syntax search

Logos crashes most times I do a search at the moment (I'm using the beta), so I'm afraid I can't show you this. Dominick's solution will help you (though he misread your question so isn't using ἐν).

Posts 13368
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 12:50 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
lemma:ἐν BEFORE 2 WORDS (lemma:Χριστός,lemma:Ἰησοῦς)

This also finds "in Jesus" and "in Christ", which we don't want.

Posts 35
Daniel Luke Gonzalez | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 12:52 PM

There should be a way to search for Jesus Christ occurring together within a prepositional phrase. Can't see why this would be so hard to pull off. Trying to create the search myself, but I need to go to a concerto concert. Smile

Posts 95
Jack Nørdam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 2:05 PM

Daniel Luke Gonzalez:

Why don't you try "ἐν AND Χριστῷ AND Ἰησοῦ", this seems to be pulling up the verses that you were wanting. You can also go to the logos wiki (http://wiki.logos.com/Detailed_Search_Help) when in need of additional help for things like this.

EDIT: Also, make sure to limit your search results to within a particular Greek New Testament. When doing this search in the UBS 4th edition, I received 199 hits.

 No, this one doesn't work - one example that it finds: Eph.1,3:

3 Εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ εὐλογήσας ἡμᾶς ἐν πάσῃ εὐλογίᾳ πνευματικῇ ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ,

Not all my three words are represented.

Posts 9097
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 2:19 PM

Jack Nørdam:

 No, this one doesn't work - one example that it finds: Eph.1,3:

3 Εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ εὐλογήσας ἡμᾶς ἐν πάσῃ εὐλογίᾳ πνευματικῇ ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ,

Not all my three words are represented.

??? I think you are wrong or we don't understand:

3 Εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ εὐλογήσας ἡμᾶς ἐν πάσῃ εὐλογίᾳ πνευματικῇ ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ,

You didn't specify that these words have to appear in a phrase. Also you didn't say if you want the exact form of Χριστῷ and Ἰησοῦ. If you want all forms, then those advising a Lemma search are on the right track. If you want phrases, that is tougher.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 13368
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 2:52 PM

Mark Smith:
I think you are wrong or we don't understand:

As I understand it the criteria is that the phrase "Jesus Christ" or "Christ Jesus" must be included, and that phrase must be preceded by "in".

Posts 9097
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 3:21 PM

HMM. Jack originally said "the words do not need to stand next to each other" so I would like a little more clarification on that.

If that is what he wants, wouldn't ἐν AND ("Χριστῷ  Ἰησοῦ" OR "Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ") be the correct search? (I get 133 results in 55 verses.) (I know that can be written without the OR and just a comma between the two phrases, too.)

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 13368
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 3:26 PM

Mark Smith:
ἐν AND ("Χριστῷ  Ἰησοῦ" OR "Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ")

I know I'm biased Smile, but I think my suggestion above is the closest without doing a syntax search because it's a morph search using lemmas, which is required to get all the results.

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 3:28 PM

Mark Barnes:
lemma:ἐν BEFORE 4 WORDS lemma:Χριστός WITHIN 1 WORD lemma:Ἰησοῦς

I don't know if there are any phrases like this in the Bible, or if the OP wants to find them if there are, but theoretically there could be phrases like "in Christ, the Lord Jesus", or "in [the Lord] Jesus, the Christ". Your search would miss those.

 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 3:47 PM

Mark Barnes:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
lemma:ἐν BEFORE 2 WORDS (lemma:Χριστός,lemma:Ἰησοῦς)

This also finds "in Jesus" and "in Christ", which we don't want.

Concur this Morph Search finds more phrases.

Appears Morph Search lemma:ἐν BEFORE 5 WORDS lemma:Χριστός WITHIN 1 WORD lemma:Ἰησοῦς

has a false positive in Romans 15:5

Personally puzzled by Syntax Search results not including 2 Thessalonians 3:12 ἐν κυρίῳ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ ?

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 13368
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 3:54 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Personally puzzled by Syntax Search results not including 2 Thessalonians 3:12 ἐν κυρίῳ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ ?

I've been looking at that too. It's possible to include it, but doing so would also include "in the name of Jesus Christ" and I don't know whether that's wanted.

Another good test verse in 1 Cor 4:15, ἐν γὰρ Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 29 2012 4:10 PM

Mark Barnes:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Personally puzzled by Syntax Search results not including 2 Thessalonians 3:12 ἐν κυρίῳ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ ?

I've been looking at that too. It's possible to include it, but doing so would also include "in the name of Jesus Christ" and I don't know whether that's wanted.

Another good test verse in 1 Cor 4:15, ἐν γὰρ Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ

What syntax search would include 1 Cor 4:15 and 2 Th 3:12 ? (personally OK if "in the name of Jesus Christ" is included)

Appears that Anything in Syntax Search matches the definite article (e.g. 2 Cor 2:14), but does not match γὰρ nor κυρίῳ

Keep Smiling Smile

Page 1 of 2 (31 items) 1 2 Next > | RSS