Bob, I really need an answer on this please..

DominicM said:

I hve several PB's which I have publisher permission for personal use (where copyright still applies)...

The T&C are that I do not "Electronically Transmit" the file, now as I understand when the Sync/ing/Store is fully introduced my PB's will be stored on your server, now this for me is very bad as you wil grab it without my consent, and store it on your server... I know you are trying to be helpful, but it will mean I am violating the agreement I have with the publisher.

I have asked before but no response, of PLEASE allow us NOT to UPLOAD content in this case PB's to the server

I wonder whether this would actually violate "the agreement [you] have with the publisher" since your material stored in the cloud is only available to you.  If others could access it, it would be a matter for concern.

DominicM said:

the key wording is STORAGE, in my opinion:

Most of the agreements are similar to this:

Providing that the material is used for personal use only and that it is not distributed by electronic means (`Electronic means, method or device' shall include but not be limited to digital optical and magnetic information storage and retrieval systems, online or satellite transmission and any other device or medium for electronic reproduction, publication or transmission whether now or hereafter known) ---- is willing to grant you, Dominic Mahon, non-exclusive permission to input text of --- into your electronic bible software.

You will not be doing this for "reproduction, publication or transmission" but only for storage. I think you are fine.

Dominic,

I commend you for you concern and ethics.  I agree with the others that you would not be violating either the spirit or the letter of what they ask of you.

It is also nice that they cooperate by giving their approval. 

I would point out that they are giving permission for you to do what the law of the land in the USA already authorizes you to do, assuming you own a legally obtained copy.  You are entitled to change the format of a document for your personal use, so long as you do not distribute it to others.  That is all that they are asking of you - obey the law.  Still it is nice that you asked and that they agreed.  Not every company would have done so.

alabama24 said:

Michael - Dominic is not in the U.S. so his mileage kilometers may vary.

You are correct and my comment about that was irrelevant.  Thanks of pointing that out. 

It is very decent of the publisher to give that permission - especially if not required to.

DominicM said:

Thanks all, I know you are trying to be helpful, but at the end of the day "all choices have to be reconciled against my conscience", and not opinion.

I guess it comes down to ethics, how far can we "Adhere to the Sprit of the law" while using it to do what we want, how far can we bend it before it breaks??

Sorry but I am bad on grey areas the older I get

You are unlike most people. Most people relax about legalism as they get older. [;)]  (I've lately been reading Richard Rohr's Falling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life.)

I still think you would be more at peace about this if you contact the publishers and ask them whether they meant you couldn't store it in any form of personal backup for yourself only (e.g., on an extra hard disk at home, or in the cloud).

Regardless of the publishers' answer, though, it sounds as though you have a fundamental discomfort with anything stored in the cloud, which is a separate issue, and is "clouding" (so to speak) your thoughts about ethics on this matter. Even if you could get beyond the "spirit of the law" vs. "letter of the law" question in this particular case, I think you would still be uncomfortable storing anything of your own personal data (including PBs that you have permissions from the publishers for) on Logos's cloud servers. If that's always going to be the case, then you will need to find a way to work around it and not let it happen. Use the book only as a Word document, for example, and not in your Logos library. It seriously isn't worth going through life feeling guilty about stuff all the time. Either stop worrying about it or do something different so that you're not in danger of violating your conscience.

DominicM said:

I do have a problem with having files stored anywhere (not just cloud), that is outside of my control, with no access or ability for me to delete if required.

Once something is stored in the cloud, even if you have control over deleting it (as with Google Docs, for example) you have no control over what they've done with their server backups. Surely the file could still be recovered from a nightly backup somehow by order of a government entity if they wanted to get it.

I think we all have to recognize that we're in a new world. The benefits of storing things in the cloud come with some loss of freedom/control, and we have to weigh for our own selves whether that is worth it or not, and who we trust. These are not simple questions. Most people don't give it nearly enough thought. I commend you for thinking these things through seriously.

In an attempt to shrink my physical library, I've been making a significant move to digital over the past couple of years. First, I've weeded out most books that I had duplicates of in Bible software or mainstream ebook platforms (such as Kindle). Then, for some titles, for which I have little doubt will not see an electronic version anytime soon, I take them to Kinkos, have the spines cut off, and scan the pages myself. Afterwards, I add a searchable text layer on them in Acrobat and save them as a PDF. Finally, I store them in DEVONthink Pro on my computer, and I move them to GoodReader on my iPad for reading or reference as needed. I've done this with quite a few books already and have many more stacked up and ready to go. 

From a functional and ethical perspective, this is no different than ripping the music on a CD to iTunes. The record labels were adamant that they didn't want people to do this, but the courts ruled people could rip legally purchased music on CDs as long as they didn't sell the original and then keep the ripped songs. By the same token, Television networks didn't want VCRs in homes in the seventies, but the courts ruled this was legal. Users of VCRs simply can't sell the videos they record. 

For the books I've scanned, I would never, under any circumstances, distribute them to someone else. I take a photo of my scanned physical copy and then I destroy the original. The photo is to prove that my copy isn't bootleg, but I seriously doubt I'm ever going to be challenged on this as long as I keep all scanned copies to myself.

There is a textbook for a class I occasionally teach, which is a primary textbook in its particular subject area. It's one of only two or three used in the majority of classes on this subject in undergraduate programs in the US. Every six months or so, I contact the publisher asking when a digital copy will be available. This book, by the way, like a lot of college textbooks, is regularly updated, and the most recent edition was published in 2010. So, it's not as if there's not an electronic copy at the publisher on their servers, probably in a format like Adobe InDesign, which could easily be ported to a standard etext format. I don't think they're setting physical type for this book. But the book is big and bulky like a lot of textbooks. The iPad and the Kindle have spoiled me--I just don't care to carry around big books anymore. 

The last time I contacted this publisher, I even mentioned that I might soon break down and simply scan the book if they were not going to release an ebook copy anytime soon. The academic rep replied back in an email, "We don't allow the scanning of our books." Well, I'm certain they don't "allow" this, so I let it drop. I didn't see any point in arguing the issue with her. But the truth of the matter is, I'm in no legally binding agreement with them. Functionally, ethically, legally, my scanning of the book myself is no different than ripping an Adele CD that I've legally purchased at Fry's (although I actually buy all my music through Amazon MP3 or the iTunes Music Store these days). 

So, I scanned the book, and I now have it on my iPad in GoodReader. My conscience is clear. When the publisher offers an electronic copy of this book (I believe they eventually will), I'll be glad to pay for a copy of it at my own expense (my original physical copy was free to me as an instructor). But until then, at least I don't have to carry around that bulky book. 

Of course, Dominick, the original poster in this thread, IS in an actual agreement with the copyright holders of a few of the texts he's made into personal books for Logos. He's got to decide whether having these automatically backed up on Logos' servers--even if for his sole use--violates the agreement he made with those copyright holders. However, I don't see Logos (the company) making a change in their software to accommodate private deals that their users have with publishers. In my opinion Dominick needs to contact the original copyright holders, explain the situation--including the fact that even now, no one else will have access to the texts--and see how they reply.

Dominic,

I too admire your concern and ethics, and I would never try to persuade you to violate you conscience.  Blessings my friend.