Bob, I really need an answer on this please..

I hve several PB's which I have publisher permission for personal use (where copyright still applies)...

The T&C are that I do not "Electronically Transmit" the file, now as I understand when the Sync/ing/Store is fully introduced my PB's will be stored on your server, now this for me is very bad as you wil grab it without my consent, and store it on your server... I know you are trying to be helpful, but it will mean I am violating the agreement I have with the publisher.

I have asked before but no response, of PLEASE allow us NOT to UPLOAD content in this case PB's to the server

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George Somsel

I hve several PB's which I have publisher permission for personal use (where copyright still applies)...

The T&C are that I do not "Electronically Transmit" the file, now as I understand when the Sync/ing/Store is fully introduced my PB's will be stored on your server, now this for me is very bad as you wil grab it without my consent, and store it on your server... I know you are trying to be helpful, but it will mean I am violating the agreement I have with the publisher.

I have asked before but no response, of PLEASE allow us NOT to UPLOAD content in this case PB's to the server

I wonder whether this would actually violate "the agreement [you] have with the publisher" since your material stored in the cloud is only available to you. If others could access it, it would be a matter for concern.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/333410#Comment_333410

I wonder whether this would actually violate "the agreement [you] have with the publisher" since your material stored in the cloud is only available to you. If others could access it, it would be a matter for concern.

I think this would be the same issue as making a backup of your personal data files using a cloud backup service. Sure you are technically "electronically transmitting" the file to another location, but not to another person, and I'm sure that is not intended to be prohibited by such agreements. Check with the publisher, but I'm sure they'd be fine with cloud storage of your personal data that you're not sharing with anyone else.

MJ. Smith

now this for me is very bad as you wil grab it without my consent, and store it on your server... I know you are trying to be helpful, but it will mean I am violating the agreement I have with the publisher.

Dominic, "electronically transmit" would normally be taken to mean "transmit to someone else" as I doubt they mean to constraint you from transmitting between your desktop and laptop. Cloud storage is essentially a remote (external) disk drive. The data is still securely yours alone.While Bob has not responded (to the best of my memory) to the issue of PB's separately, he has responded to the issue of partial syncing several times. If you have scruples regarding cloud use and you agreement with the publisher, I would suggest that you contact them to verify that secure cloud storage is within your permissions.

Edit: I see George & Rosie posted a similar answer while I was on the phone.

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/333416#Comment_333416

the key wording is STORAGE, in my opinion:

Most of the agreements are similar to this:

Providing that the material is used for personal use only and that it is not distributed by electronic means (`Electronic means, method or device' shall include but not be limited to digital optical and magnetic information storage and retrieval systems, online or satellite transmission and any other device or medium for electronic reproduction, publication or transmission whether now or hereafter known) ---- is willing to grant you, Dominic Mahon, non-exclusive permission to input text of --- into your electronic bible software.

Alan Charles Gielczyk

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/333444#Comment_333444

the key wording is STORAGE, in my opinion:

Most of the agreements are similar to this:

Providing that the material is used for personal use only and that it is not distributed by electronic means (`Electronic means, method or device' shall include but not be limited to digital optical and magnetic information storage and retrieval systems, online or satellite transmission and any other device or medium for electronic reproduction, publication or transmission whether now or hereafter known) ---- is willing to grant you, Dominic Mahon, non-exclusive permission to input text of --- into your electronic bible software.

You will not be doing this for "reproduction, publication or transmission" but only for storage. I think you are fine.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/333444#Comment_333444

the key wording is STORAGE, in my opinion:

Most of the agreements are similar to this:

Providing that the material is used for personal use only and that it is not distributed by electronic means (`Electronic means, method or device' shall include but not be limited to digital optical and magnetic information storage and retrieval systems, online or satellite transmission and any other device or medium for electronic reproduction, publication or transmission whether now or hereafter known) ---- is willing to grant you, Dominic Mahon, non-exclusive permission to input text of --- into your electronic bible software.

I think the operative words are "for personal use only and that it is not distributed by electronic means" -- it then goes on to describe what is meant by "electronic means"; you can get your scruples all tied up in knots worrying about it, but if whatever you're doing electronically with it is not going to "distribute" the content to others, then you are adhering not only to the spirit of the agreement, but even to the letter of it.

Preventing you from using any "digital optical magnetic information storage and retrieval systems" at all cannot possibly be the intent of the agreement, otherwise you would not be able to use it in Logos, since that entails saving it on your hard disk. If all they're allowing you to do is "input text" but not save it anywhere, that would be pretty pointless, wouldn't it?

Mike Childs

Dominic,

I commend you for you concern and ethics. I agree with the others that you would not be violating either the spirit or the letter of what they ask of you.

It is also nice that they cooperate by giving their approval.

I would point out that they are giving permission for you to do what the law of the land in the USA already authorizes you to do, assuming you own a legally obtained copy. You are entitled to change the format of a document for your personal use, so long as you do not distribute it to others. That is all that they are asking of you - obey the law. Still it is nice that you asked and that they agreed. Not every company would have done so.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/333485#Comment_333485

Michael - Dominic is not in the U.S. so his mileage kilometers may vary. [:)]

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/333501#Comment_333501

Michael - Dominic is not in the U.S. so his mileage kilometers may vary.

You are correct and my comment about that was irrelevant. Thanks of pointing that out.

It is very decent of the publisher to give that permission - especially if not required to.

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/333579#Comment_333579

Thanks all, I know you are trying to be helpful, but at the end of the day "all choices have to be reconciled against my conscience", and not opinion.

I guess it comes down to ethics, is it:
A: How far can we bend the law before breaking it?
B: Live a life that is above reproach..
C: Who cares anyway..?

Sorry (maybe) it is permissible to do, and whilst I do have permission to use it personally the copyright is still theirs.. I guess what I am trying to communicate (badly) is that am "really struggling/not happy" with the file being stored on a device that is outside of my control with no access or ability to delete. You say you do it for notes, well thats different, the copyright is mine..

I dont/wont use cloud for backup... sorry but I dont trust any online backup system, and Seriously, I would not want it stored on server permamently..

I even use a self written program for encrypting the text of some of my notes, paranoid maybe.. but hey.. you cant be too careful when it comes to data protection

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/333712#Comment_333712

Thanks all, I know you are trying to be helpful, but at the end of the day "all choices have to be reconciled against my conscience", and not opinion.

I guess it comes down to ethics, how far can we "Adhere to the Sprit of the law" while using it to do what we want, how far can we bend it before it breaks??

Sorry but I am bad on grey areas the older I get

You are unlike most people. Most people relax about legalism as they get older. [;)] (I've lately been reading Richard Rohr's Falling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life.)

I still think you would be more at peace about this if you contact the publishers and ask them whether they meant you couldn't store it in any form of personal backup for yourself only (e.g., on an extra hard disk at home, or in the cloud).

Regardless of the publishers' answer, though, it sounds as though you have a fundamental discomfort with anything stored in the cloud, which is a separate issue, and is "clouding" (so to speak) your thoughts about ethics on this matter. Even if you could get beyond the "spirit of the law" vs. "letter of the law" question in this particular case, I think you would still be uncomfortable storing anything of your own personal data (including PBs that you have permissions from the publishers for) on Logos's cloud servers. If that's always going to be the case, then you will need to find a way to work around it and not let it happen. Use the book only as a Word document, for example, and not in your Logos library. It seriously isn't worth going through life feeling guilty about stuff all the time. Either stop worrying about it or do something different so that you're not in danger of violating your conscience.

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/333719#Comment_333719

I still think you would be more at peace about this if you contact the publishers and ask them whether they meant you couldn't store it in any form of personal backup for yourself only

Personal Backup is fine, and is no issue as I have "control" over the file..

it sounds as though you have a fundamental discomfort with anything stored in the cloud

Oddly not completly, I do use cloud for sharing/transfer of data but am cautious and delete the file ASAP afterwards

If I stored PB's source on cloud I would have no probs not protecting file and just uploading docx

But if file/document is to stay online for a while (or if it was sensitive) would probably double encode it and password protect it - but thats my choice.. but most of my files are not usualy up on cloud for more than 2hrs..

I do have a problem with having files stored anywhere (not just cloud), that is outside of my control, with no access or ability for me to delete if required.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/333723#Comment_333723

I do have a problem with having files stored anywhere (not just cloud), that is outside of my control, with no access or ability for me to delete if required.

Once something is stored in the cloud, even if you have control over deleting it (as with Google Docs, for example) you have no control over what they've done with their server backups. Surely the file could still be recovered from a nightly backup somehow by order of a government entity if they wanted to get it.

I think we all have to recognize that we're in a new world. The benefits of storing things in the cloud come with some loss of freedom/control, and we have to weigh for our own selves whether that is worth it or not, and who we trust. These are not simple questions. Most people don't give it nearly enough thought. I commend you for thinking these things through seriously.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/333723#Comment_333723

DominicM,

I do commend you on your desire to follow the allowance that the copyright holder has carved out for you. Another option would be to approach the publisher again (perhaps an email to the legal team) and ask if they would consider syncing and cloud storage to violate the do not electronically transmit portion of the agreement.

A while back I asked First Things if I could put their magazine into a PB. Here's how I asked

[quote]

I request permission to create an electronic copy of each edition of First Things that I have subscribed to. My primary purpose is space storage and adding searching capabilities beyond your website.

This request includes

Copying and pasting the text of the articles from your web site to a word processing program.
Tagging the files for compilation in Logos Bible Software's Personal Book tool (preserving page numbers and metadata)
Storing copies of the electronic files locally and in cloud-based backup and sync services

I will not

Share, sell, or otherwise distribute these files.
Convert any volume that I have not received via my subscription.

In conclusion this is a simple request to format shift volumes for my personal use.

Thank you for your consideration,

They agreed to my request.

I believe the intent (and the way it would probably be interpreted by a court if a challenge arose) of the legal language you were given was to prevent hosting the file on a server or sharing via p2p client.

R. Mansfield

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/333793#Comment_333793

In an attempt to shrink my physical library, I've been making a significant move to digital over the past couple of years. First, I've weeded out most books that I had duplicates of in Bible software or mainstream ebook platforms (such as Kindle). Then, for some titles, for which I have little doubt will not see an electronic version anytime soon, I take them to Kinkos, have the spines cut off, and scan the pages myself. Afterwards, I add a searchable text layer on them in Acrobat and save them as a PDF. Finally, I store them in DEVONthink Pro on my computer, and I move them to GoodReader on my iPad for reading or reference as needed. I've done this with quite a few books already and have many more stacked up and ready to go.

From a functional and ethical perspective, this is no different than ripping the music on a CD to iTunes. The record labels were adamant that they didn't want people to do this, but the courts ruled people could rip legally purchased music on CDs as long as they didn't sell the original and then keep the ripped songs. By the same token, Television networks didn't want VCRs in homes in the seventies, but the courts ruled this was legal. Users of VCRs simply can't sell the videos they record.

For the books I've scanned, I would never, under any circumstances, distribute them to someone else. I take a photo of my scanned physical copy and then I destroy the original. The photo is to prove that my copy isn't bootleg, but I seriously doubt I'm ever going to be challenged on this as long as I keep all scanned copies to myself.

There is a textbook for a class I occasionally teach, which is a primary textbook in its particular subject area. It's one of only two or three used in the majority of classes on this subject in undergraduate programs in the US. Every six months or so, I contact the publisher asking when a digital copy will be available. This book, by the way, like a lot of college textbooks, is regularly updated, and the most recent edition was published in 2010. So, it's not as if there's not an electronic copy at the publisher on their servers, probably in a format like Adobe InDesign, which could easily be ported to a standard etext format. I don't think they're setting physical type for this book. But the book is big and bulky like a lot of textbooks. The iPad and the Kindle have spoiled me--I just don't care to carry around big books anymore.

The last time I contacted this publisher, I even mentioned that I might soon break down and simply scan the book if they were not going to release an ebook copy anytime soon. The academic rep replied back in an email, "We don't allow the scanning of our books." Well, I'm certain they don't "allow" this, so I let it drop. I didn't see any point in arguing the issue with her. But the truth of the matter is, I'm in no legally binding agreement with them. Functionally, ethically, legally, my scanning of the book myself is no different than ripping an Adele CD that I've legally purchased at Fry's (although I actually buy all my music through Amazon MP3 or the iTunes Music Store these days).

So, I scanned the book, and I now have it on my iPad in GoodReader. My conscience is clear. When the publisher offers an electronic copy of this book (I believe they eventually will), I'll be glad to pay for a copy of it at my own expense (my original physical copy was free to me as an instructor). But until then, at least I don't have to carry around that bulky book.

Of course, Dominick, the original poster in this thread, IS in an actual agreement with the copyright holders of a few of the texts he's made into personal books for Logos. He's got to decide whether having these automatically backed up on Logos' servers--even if for his sole use--violates the agreement he made with those copyright holders. However, I don't see Logos (the company) making a change in their software to accommodate private deals that their users have with publishers. In my opinion Dominick needs to contact the original copyright holders, explain the situation--including the fact that even now, no one else will have access to the texts--and see how they reply.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

I have asked before but no response, of PLEASE allow us NOT to UPLOAD content in this case PB's to the server

The latest design document (that I saw for the publishing/sharing feature) called for syncing of personal books (to the store, to other computers, to mobile devices) to be an opt-in feature. The primary concern driving this was the bandwidth requirements of automatically syncing large books every time they're compiled; I will add your concerns about reproducing content without permission to the discussion.

Mike Childs

Dominic,

I too admire your concern and ethics, and I would never try to persuade you to violate you conscience. Blessings my friend.

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/334117#Comment_334117

The latest design document (that I saw..)...called for syncing ...to be an opt-in feature

Excellent news, I could live with that (even if bandwidth is the driving force)

I will add your concerns about reproducing content without permission to the discussion.

Thank you, thats all I was hoping for