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Posts 120
Steve Robinson | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jan 31 2012 5:54 PM

I was excited to see “The Finished Work of Christ: The Truth of Romans 1-8” by Francis Schaeffer on Vyrso, at a great price no less, but am pretty disappointed in the quality of the tagging so far, (and I haven’t even read beyond the commentary narrative on Paul’s greeting yet).

For example, an introductory reference to Romans 1:16-17 pops up Acts 1:16-17.  A little further down the “page” four consecutive parenthetical references to “1:4” (in Romans, based on the quoted text), each actually pop up 1 Kings 1:4, presumably carrying over the book link from a 1 Kings passage referenced earlier in the paragraph.

While 1) I don’t like to complain, (I really don't), 2) I know that Vyrso books are not tagged nearly to the extent that Logos books are and 3) there’s an actual process for reporting typos (which I have done and will continue to utilize, trusting Logos will pass the message to the Vyrso team), one of the big selling points of Vyrso ebooks over other ebook formats like Kindle, was the verse tagging, so…

Come on Vyrso Team! PLEASE take some immediate actions toward significantly improving the quality of your processes and publications, including a review of your staffing and training areas, if needed. Tagging doesn’t get much more basic than this. While everyone understands that “typos happen,” I know you (as someone who wants a reputation as producing top-quality products) and I are both frustrated by this level of error-laden output, the difference being only you can take steps to improve it.

Thanks for your attention to this matter.

Steve R.

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 6:22 PM

Most likely this tagging all took place automatically, which would explain errors that are easy to explain yet should be easy for a human to spot.

Posts 1783
Tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 7:08 PM

Steve Robinson:
one of the big selling points of Vyrso ebooks over other ebook formats like Kindle, was the verse tagging,

Yes  That is the only reason I will buy Vyrso books instead of a Kindle formate.  Yes

After hearing this I don´t know if I will buy the book. Hmm

The other thing that needs to be improve is their responce time to questions about orders! Sad

www.hombrereformado.org  Solo a Dios la Gloria   Apoyo

Posts 120
Steve Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 7:27 PM

Chris Roberts:

Most likely this tagging all took place automatically

Possibly, Chris, but bottom line, (at least for me) as a customer of any business I'm giving my money too, I don't care nearly as much about how they create a quality product and try to ensure that it is, indeed, one that people like myself can be relatively confident is free of preventable defects, as I do that they actually do so, demonstrating business practices and processes that make every effort to do so consistently, which ultimately is clearly reflected (for good or bad) in the products made available for sale.

Having been a business person for 25 years before entering full-time ministry, my original post wasn't meant as a rebuke as much as "passionate encouragement" for the leadership of Vyrso to be more aware of and diligent in the quality of product I'm sure they hope to release for as long as they are in business.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 7:49 PM

Steve - the process is automated, like Chris suggested. The advantages of Vyrso in my mind are 1) the use of the book in the Logos system; 2) the ability to copy & paste freely without DRM; and 3) auto linking to Scripture. If there are bugs, I am sure that Logos will fix them if we bring them to their attention. 

There is a catch 22 problem here. Users want these books 1) as cheap as Amazon and 2) as soon as Amazon. Logos seems to me to be doing a great job with Vyrso. I am VERY happy. Having a few broken hyperlinks for a book put out quickly and cheaply seems fair to me as long as Logos fixes them when brought to their attention. I don't know what more you could want unless you were willing to 1) pay more and 2) wait longer.

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Posts 120
Steve Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 8:41 PM

alabama24:
I don't know what more you could want unless you were willing to 1) pay more and 2) wait longer.

I see your point with new releases, but this is hardly a new release. (The Kindle version came out almost three years ago.) With works like "The Finished Work of Christ," which is essentially a Bible reference work (with a disproportional amount of Bible passage tags compared to most general "Christian Living" offerings) and a resource that would fit as well on Logos' product listings as Vyrso's, I still maintain that Vyrso NEEDS to do a better job of ensuring that the "advantage" they promote over Kindle and others actually works as expected. I'm, personally, willing to wait for that quality-assurance process to take place, especially on Bible verse-intensive works. (And, honestly, I'd be willing to pay a bit more for this type of reference resource to be right the first time.)

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 8:46 PM

Steve Robinson:
I see your point with new releases, but this is hardly a new release.

Ah, but everything in Vyrso is a "new release." They are looking to have thousands of new books, not just hundreds.

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Posts 117
Dennis Parish | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 9:03 PM

I think Steve has a good point that some books on Vyrso should not be there but should be in Logos.

For example, what are any books from Baker Academic doing in Vyrso? Look up the scripture index of "Are You the One Who Is to Come? The Historical Jesus and the Messianic Question" in Amazon or Google Books; you'll see references from the Pseudepigrapha, Talmud (B & J), targums, Dead Sea scrolls, NT Apocrypha, Patristics. 

Looks to me like they just handed the publisher catalogs to someone in marketing, saying "here pick some that are short and sound like they will sell."

I expected better from Logos. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 9:19 PM

Dennis Parish:
what are any books from Baker Academic doing in Vyrso?

I think the problem is that some books may not have the market necessary to make "Logos" editions. Actually, I have suggested that Logos create a pre-pub program utilizing Vyrso. If a book would be a candidate for a Logos edition, but would be unlikely to move quickly, a Vyrso edition could be sold as a pre-pub for the Logos edition. Once enough copies have been sold, production could begin on the Logos edition. Upon completion, the book would be removed from the Vyrso store and placed in the Logos store. Those who purchased the "pre-pub" would receive the complementary upgrade. I see this as a win-win. Better than wasting my money with a Kindle version.

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Posts 117
Dennis Parish | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 9:23 PM

Yes

Posts 251
Rod | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 1 2012 7:04 AM

alabama24:
If a book would be a candidate for a Logos edition, but would be unlikely to move quickly, a Vyrso edition could be sold as a pre-pub for the Logos edition. Once enough copies have been sold, production could begin on the Logos edition. Upon completion, the book would be removed from the Vyrso store and placed in the Logos store. Those who purchased the "pre-pub" would receive the complementary upgrade. I see this as a win-win. Better than wasting my money with a Kindle version.

Yes

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 1 2012 9:50 AM

alabama24:
If there are bugs, I am sure that Logos will fix them if we bring them to their attention.

I understand that this is a common business practice nowadays to treat users as quality control and R&D, but it does not make it right. Why should I as a customer pay a premium AND be expected to "bring them (typos, bugs, etc) to their attention?"

I "bring them to their attention" because

 

  • I feel that Logos is committed to provide a superior product
  • I want to help others to have a great Logos experience

 

However, I think that Logos is drowning in these typo reports. I personally submitted probably close to a hundred typos and many mis-linked items. There needs to be progress on this issue.  In all fairness to Logos, I estimate that only a couple percent of links are  bad.  the reason we see so many of them is because there are so many resources for both Logos and Vyrso.

For the time being, however, the argument for justifying Vyrso prices over Kindle's with scripture linking and quality is moot. Automated tagging is rough around the edges.

Of course, there is a simple solution to this problem. Coffee No, actually I mean $. Google, Firefox, Microsoft and many other companies think it makes a business sense to offer bounty for critical bugs. If a feature that is marketed as value added and distinguishing Vyrso/Logos apart from competitors is corrupt, I call it critical.

What if there was a system for offering Logos book credit for every x number of verified and fixed typos, bugs, errors, UI weirdness? Or not. Why doesn't logos devise a system that leverages Logos users' enthusiasm for a better product with technology to automate the process of correcting automated tagging blunders? What I care about in the end is a superior product from Logos. I don't care how they arrive at the solution. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 1 2012 10:15 AM

toughski - I agree with much of what you wrote. The only thing I would point out is that Vyrso editions must be judged differently than Logos ones.

The simple solution would be to can automatic hyperlinking of scripture passages. Personally, I would rather have the few mislinked passages and submit them to Logos.

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Posts 251
Rod | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 1 2012 10:47 AM

alabama24:
Personally, I would rather have the few mislinked passages and submit them to Logos.

I agree.  Some of the Vyrso prices are lower than the competition so to some extent, you get what would pay for.  One has to expect that over time the auto linking will get better.

Posts 1599
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 1 2012 10:52 AM

I likewise have noticed a few missed bible links in Vyrso books.  I hadn't thought about putting in a typo report though.  Is Logos interested in fixing these books?  I would like to hear an official answer.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

Posts 120
Steve Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 1 2012 11:57 AM

alabama24:

Personally, I would rather have the few mislinked passages and submit them to Logos.

I don't disagree, but again, with heavily verse-tagged works, I would advocate that it's possibly better to simply not tag them than for Vyrso to put out a work so riddled with errors from the automated tagging process. I counted over 40 incorrect tags in "The Finished Work of Christ" covering just the first half of the first chapter of Romans, and not one of the tags of the bold verse references, i.e. To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called . . . saints. (1:7a), in the narrative on the first 15 verses pops up the correct passage.

We shouldn't have to submit that level of correction needed to Vyrso or Logos, in my opinion. Regardless of cost, it's a poor reflection on their business, a real frustration for users and, potentially, a real issue of confusion and misunderstanding for the new believer and/or seeker who gets their hands on such a publication intended to clearly explain what God's Word says and isn't already as well-versed (pun intended) on Scripture as many of us on this forum, myself included.

All that said, I'm trusting the Vyrso team gets the message and will at least consider the matter, which is all I want and can ask as a customer.

Enjoy the day, all!

Steve R.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 1 2012 12:23 PM

Steve Robinson:
. I counted over 40 incorrect tags in "The Finished Work of Christ"

Steve, 

if this is still the same error you described in your original post, then it's really the same error in the sense that the automated tagging process works like that (should work just the same if you let it tag a personal Book): if the process encounters an incomplete reference (just chapter and verse, or only verse), it supplies with the information from the last more complete reference.

This heuristic usually works very well, it doesn't in commentaries, where incomplete references are more likely to go back to the passage under review, especially if they're bold. But how should an automatic algorithm sort that out without error? 

Due to their usual interaction with other commentaries, I think that commentaries lend themselves much more to the full Logos tagging than the simplified automatic Vyrso tagging. Currently I think there are three (3) commentaries in total in Vyrso ( see http://vyrso.com/products/search?Genre=Biblical+Studies&Genre_Biblical+Studies=Commentaries ) and one is probably wrongly tagged into that category.

But then again, a commentary on the first half of Romans by Francis Schaeffer wouldn't be offered for $3.74 in "big" Logos  - so I'll now buy it and be glad.

My 2c 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 1 2012 6:46 PM

NewbieMick:
This heuristic usually works very well, it doesn't in commentaries, where incomplete references are more likely to go back to the passage under review, especially if they're bold. But how should an automatic algorithm sort that out without error? 

I don't understand, are you excusing Logos' poor job in this instance?  While I applaud their bold ambition of adding "thousands" of titles to Vyrso, what it means is that there is very little quality control of the finished product. This is business as usual. Similar to a pharmaceutical company that knows that there will be 2% patients who will die if they take their drug, but profits from the other 98 will more than offset the court costs and any family payout.  Of course, noone will die or get harmed by mis-linked references or typos, but I believe LOGOS' image will suffer.  I am simply suggesting putting a part of those Mad Christmas Marketing profits into increased quality control.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 1 2012 11:54 PM

toughski:

NewbieMick:
This heuristic usually works very well, it doesn't in commentaries, where incomplete references are more likely to go back to the passage under review, especially if they're bold. But how should an automatic algorithm sort that out without error? 

I don't understand, are you excusing Logos' poor job in this instance?  While I applaud their bold ambition of adding "thousands" of titles to Vyrso, what it means is that there is very little quality control of the finished product.

I just wanted to explain it to the original poster. Then: I think I remember Bob commenting on the Vyrso production process once. He said that Logos just throws an *.epub file through the automated tagging routine, IIRC he even explained that Logos can't resolve typos in the file but needs to go back to the publisher (but I may be wrong on this, I seem to remember resource updates that resolved such errors) - thus you are right, there is very little QC of the finished product. Which is reflected in prices at or below Amazon level. 

I think it's not the best decision to have commentaries at all in Vyrso.

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 379
Brian Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 2 2012 3:53 PM

I apologize that our tagging and products have not lived up-to the standard you have come to expect from Logos. Thank you all for your feedback on our tagging and ebook choices for Vyrso. We are taking all of your thoughts into consideration, we are continually refining our process to improve the products that we provide you. 

As alabama24 noted, if we were to increase our tagging efforts (similar to those of Logos editions) the costs of production would drastically increase and we would not be able to competitively price our products. 

Again I apologize if we have not lived up to your expectations, and we appreciate the feedback!

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