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Russ White | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Feb 13 2012 9:00 AM

When applying for academic status this time, I found three things odd...

1. The degree options don't include an MDiv. It seems like this would be included, since it's a fairly standard degree (it's the degree I'm pursuing, in fact). The program I'm in is 96 hours, which is beyond the available options.

2. What is the hours option for? Is this for the number of hours in the degree program (96 in my case), or number of hours I currently have completed (22 in my case).

3. Homeschooling isn't included --is this intentional?

:-)

Russ

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Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 13 2012 9:34 AM

Russ,

I think leaving off the MDiv is an oversite, I got an MDiv and received an academic discount. The hours are probably referring to whether your full time or not. Yes homeschooling is excluded, because it's elementary or high school. These discounts are for college students and up. They don't offer academic discounts to Christian high schools.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 13 2012 10:32 AM

Hi Philana

Philana Crouch:
Yes homeschooling is excluded, because it's elementary or high school. These discounts are for college students and up

I was interested in this comment and keen to understand how "distance learning" works in the States.

For example, I have the option to enrol for an MA in Theology at a Bible College in the UK. I can do virtually all of the work "at home", accessing the college resources and study materials over the Internet. There are just 2-3 day residential sessions to start off each module.

Is there a similar model in the US?

I'm trying to understand whether this approach would qualify for Academic Discounts.

Thanks, Graham

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Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 13 2012 10:46 AM

Normally, "hours" refers to how many credits you are currently enrolled for.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 13 2012 10:52 AM

Graham Criddle:

I was interested in this comment and keen to understand how "distance learning" works in the States.

For example, I have the option to enrol for an MA in Theology at a Bible College in the UK. I can do virtually all of the work "at home", accessing the college resources and study materials over the Internet. There are just 2-3 day residential sessions to start off each module.

Is there a similar model in the US?

I'm trying to understand whether this approach would qualify for Academic Discounts.

Yes, there is a similar model of distance learning in the US. You'd have to ask Logos whether this qualifies for Academic Discounts. I would guess that as long as you are enrolled in an accredited educational institution for credit, it doesn't matter whether you are getting those credits in person or through online study. But don't let answers you get on this forum from fellow users be your final authority. Ask Logos. Email academic@logos.com.

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David Ladiges | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 13 2012 10:55 AM

Graham,

Graham Criddle:

Is there a similar model in the US?

I'm trying to understand whether this approach would qualify for Academic Discounts.

We do have similar programs and there should be a Distance Learning selection on the application form under Residence Type. 

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 13 2012 10:57 AM

Rosie and David

Thanks for your quick and helpful responses.

Graham

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Frank Fenby | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 13 2012 11:04 AM

Graham Criddle:
There are just 2-3 day residential sessions to start off each module.

There are many fully accredited universities, colleges, and seminaries that do not even have the 2-3 day residential requirements. Some examples are Moody, Dallas Theological Seminary, and many fully accredited universities. Some of them have just business offices. I am thinking of Capella. I have taken all online (no resident work) classes from the University of South Florida and California State University, all of these at the Master's Level.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 13 2012 11:24 AM

Thanks Frank

Good to get an understanding of how things are done elsewhere

Graham

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Paul-C | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 13 2012 12:41 PM

Graham, I live in the UK and am currently studying for a MA in Biblical and Theological Studies at Western Seminary, Portland, OR. I need to take 64 credits in total, and 30 of those credits must be taken on campus. I do this by travelling to the US for two weeks here and there to take "intensive classes" (which require a lot of pre-class preparation and post-class assignments.) I do the rest of the classes via distance learning. I'm thoroughly enjoying it as I get to do distance learning at my own pace, but also get to meet fellow students when I'm on campus. Most important of all, it also means I get a jolly to a lovely part of the US every now and then! 

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Vanessa Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 13 2012 2:42 PM

Thank you to all who have already quickly answered Russ's questions!  

To provide a bit of clarity on the first question - an Mdiv is a Master's degree in Divinity.  I have attached a screenshot of how that portion of the application would look.  

Other subjects or concentrations entered in the "Major(s)" field, such as "Theology", "Biblical Studies", etc., are also acceptable.

Credit hours are, as suggested, the hours/units in which you are currently enrolled.  

We do have a Distance Learning designation under residence type, and have many distance learning programs already set up for discounts.

Finally, there will soon be a couple of updates to the verbiage in the form to make it more inclusive of overseas programs. 

--Vanessa

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 17 2012 7:12 AM

Vanessa Smith:
To provide a bit of clarity on the first question - an Mdiv is a Master's degree in Divinity.

Actually, that's wrong.

An M Div. is a "Master's of Divinity" degree. It's a professional degree that is on the level of what a Master's degree in a more general academic program would be. As a part of an M.Div. degree, one may also have a major, or concentration (in e.g., NT Studies, Youth Ministry, Pastoral Care, etc.).

If that's how you want the form filled out, that's fine, but you can expect a lot of calls and/or emails about it. If that's how you want to do it, I'd suggest changing "Degree in Progress"  to "Degree Level in Progress" and changing "Major" to "Type," or adding a category called "Type" and leaving the "Major" as is (though not all M.Div. programs have the option to declare a Major, nor do all who have that option require that one declare a Major).

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Vanessa Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 17 2012 8:37 AM

Thank you for the clarification and suggestions, Richard.  

We will certainly take that into consideration.  There are a few updates in the works which should help with this as well as the other points raised above.

 

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 17 2012 8:37 AM

Richard DeRuiter:

Vanessa Smith:
To provide a bit of clarity on the first question - an Mdiv is a Master's degree in Divinity.

Actually, that's wrong.

An M Div. is a "Master's of Divinity" degree. It's a professional degree that is on the level of what a Master's degree in a more general academic program would be. As a part of an M.Div. degree, one may also have a major, or concentration (in e.g., NT Studies, Youth Ministry, Pastoral Care, etc.).

Agreed! Pretty substantial error for a Bible software company to have made. This really ought to be fixed.

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 17 2012 8:41 AM

Rosie Perera:
This really ought to be fixed.

And it's not that hard to add M.Div. to the list in the menu. Unless Logos is using something much more complex than what I understand, it's exactly one line of code.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 17 2012 5:34 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
Unless Logos is using something much more complex than what I understand, it's exactly one line of code.

After Bradley posted a link to this slightly tongue-in-cheek article about how long things actually take when we think they're going to be a quick fix, I've given up suggesting that something would only be one line of code or ten minutes of work.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 17 2012 5:40 PM

Rosie Perera:

Richard DeRuiter:
Unless Logos is using something much more complex than what I understand, it's exactly one line of code.

After Bradley posted a link to this slightly tongue-in-cheek article about how long things actually take when we think they're going to be a quick fix, I've given up suggesting that something would only be one line of code or ten minutes of work.

I've seen these forms before, and although it's been a while since I actually did anything with them, adding something to a list is really just adding it to a list. The hard part is formatting the interface.

But, like I said, it's been a while, and this may be at another level from the javascript stuff I did way, way back.

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 18 2012 2:34 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

I've seen these forms before, and although it's been a while since I actually did anything with them, adding something to a list is really just adding it to a list. The hard part is formatting the interface.

Very likely true. But my point was that it's not our place to be telling Logos "you should be able to do this because it's trivial" -- let them figure that part out. We can only suggest "you should do this because it's the right thing to do." It's quite irritating as a developer to have users telling you to do something because it's a piece of cake (even if they're right). I've been on the developer side of this, so I have empathy. Let's just leave them to their job and let them decide how hard it would be.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 18 2012 6:47 PM

Rosie Perera:
I would guess that as long as you are enrolled in an accredited educational institution for credit, it doesn't matter whether you are getting those credits in person or through online study. But don't let answers you get on this forum from fellow users be your final authority. Ask Logos. Email academic@logos.com.

I hope Logos is a little more understanding of "accreditation" than most of the accrediting organizations. There are many legitimate schools who are dedicated to training ministerial workers in third world countries where accreditation is sorely lacking or structured differently than the American model.

South African Theological Seminary found it neccessary to seek accreditation from a US based group just to be accepted in the scholastic circles of American Christianity. It seems their African accreditation was not impressive enough to Americans.

I know of one Bible college in Haiti that that lacks accreditation but gets the job done. The young men in training are probably too poor to buy Logos even with an academic discount. Maybe it is ok that they don't count. (That was sarcasm, folks.)

In India religious accrediting agencies are formed under a provision in their Constitution that guarantees the separation of church and state by an NGO (Non-Government Organization) structure. American accrediting agencies like to reject India's quality seminary education because "they don't do it like we do in America." India's educational system produces better educated graduates than most US schools.

For more than half it's history Gordon-Conwell  Theological Seminary was unaccredited. Yet the graduates and staff include many famous names of stellar repute. 

Jimmy Swaggart's World Evangelism Bible College is not accredited by any state or regional agency but I would argue they are a real college offering quality training. AMES Christian University is another real school without accreditation. Berean School of the Bible (available in Logos) is accredited through Global University who holds accreditation from  Accrediting Commission of the Distance Education and Training Council . Some would argue that isn't "real" enough.

Tyndale Theological Seminary is a fine school that had a legal battle over their non-accredited degree conferrals. They won in the Texas Supreme Court against the Texas State Department of Education. 

Louisiana Baptist University (unaccredited) has an impressive record of notable graduates. Several are names you will probably recognize. 

NationsUniversity is in the process of getting accredited. They offer a free education to inmates and about $100 per year for everyone else.

My Bible college was accredited but was required to install an elevator in their gymnasium to keep that accreditation. The reasoning was persons in wheelchairs could not reach the miniature second floor where the catwalks were. Confused

My real soapbox issue here is, accreditation is not always what it is cracked up to be. The one Christian school that offers a Masters in Biblical Archaeolgy by distance education is not accredited by any American agency. And I know of no other way I can get that degree. Crying It sure would be nice to have Academic discounts for the Logos resources I still want to buy. I can not afford Liberty University and Tyndale Theological Seminary doesn't want to be accredited.

fwiw: One of our former MVPs (Dr. Chris Elford, Academic Vice President of Rocky Mountain College) is on an international accrediting committee for religious schools. I have heard the good rationale for accreditation but I also know many reasons against it. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 349
Frank Fenby | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 19 2012 11:12 PM

Super Tramp:
My real soapbox issue here is, accreditation is not always what it is cracked up to be.

AMEN!

I have be through several rounds of this game. ABHE is fully recognized by the US Department of Education and is more "friendly" than most. In my work in the Alaskan bush, where many of the students do have Logos, we are not looking at formal accreditation at the moment. Part of the issue is the western European bias that these organizations, maybe unwittingly, enforce. Southwest Alaska is still very Eastern in its through patterns and practices. 

I know that there are Western style seminaries and Bible Colleges in many part of the world. My experience with them is that while they think they are meeting a real need and to some extent are, they are in reality fostering syncretism. They simply denounce the receiving worldview and try to replace it with a new one. Generally this just drives the denounced worldview underground. Sooner or later the old worldview will surface in the Church, sometime in surprising ways. The writings of Paul Hiebert are in my humble opinion must reading for westerners working outside their own people group. His "Understanding Folk Religions" is an easy entry into his writings.

 

 

 

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