not THAT valuable

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Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 10:51 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
I do think it is appropriate, if one did decides to purchase a resource from Amazon that is also available in Logos, to send an email to sales stating why. It might help them dial in their pricing structure to something more competitive.

That's actually a pretty good idea.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 171
Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 10:52 AM

Dan DeVilder:

Abi Gail:

 

hey, where's that old beloved Avatar of yours?

I have new pics of her. Will update soon. Hope all is well with you and yours.

 

~

Posts 3863
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 11:44 AM

Abi Gail:

Dan DeVilder:

Abi Gail:

 

hey, where's that old beloved Avatar of yours?

I have new pics of her. Will update soon. Hope all is well with you and yours.

 

Look forward to them!  As for "us", we are doing well overall.  Had to (no joke) perform the heimlich m. on my 8-year old son a couple days ago.  He had a frozen strawberry stuck in his pipe.  That was a little freaky.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 12:24 PM

toughski:
I can't wait for some genius at Amazon provide a free KJV Bible with every Kindle and provide reference look-ups the same way they do word look ups.  

Would 99¢ suffice?  http://www.amazon.com/The-Holy-Bible-ILLUSTRATED-ebook/dp/B004HD5Y3O/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1330806119&sr=1-1

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 12:38 PM

George Somsel:

toughski:
I can't wait for some genius at Amazon provide a free KJV Bible with every Kindle and provide reference look-ups the same way they do word look ups.  

Would 99¢ suffice?  http://www.amazon.com/The-Holy-Bible-ILLUSTRATED-ebook/dp/B004HD5Y3O/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1330806119&sr=1-1

I knew many Bibles were available already, I was talking more about the idea of passage look-ups in a regular book when one highlights the reference.

Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 1:05 PM

toughski:
So, is the majority of Logos' users content with 50%-100% markup? Really? What do you consider a fair markup (compared with Kindle) for the added value of Logos Searching and Indexing? I personally think 10-20%

You do realize that Amazon often sells stuff at a loss simply to drive competitors out of business, right?

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 1:26 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
I don't get it.

Although forums can be a place to simply "vent", this is not why I originated this post. Your observation is correct: this issue comes up frequently, thus qualifying it as important to users and therefore, it should be important to LOGOS. At least I feel it should be discussed in an open and objective manner and not "it is worth to me at any price whatsoever." At some price point, Logos' added value should stop being a value for most users. This % price point is what I wanted to find out.

I concede, Kindle pricing as a measuring stick may be a little unfair, but what else can we measure Logos' value by? Common practice IS to measure something by the lowest cost competitor in it's class.

Contrary to popular myth, Logos has a huge say in what their final price is for resources. Yes, publishers set prices, the same way Coke sets their prices at Walmart and at a gas station near you. But the retailer has control over their final price. In all fairness, Logos is a little more than a retailer - they don't just sell books, they modify/ add to books their tagging, indexing, etc. But I wonder, in the 3 titles mentioned in the OP how much tagging was actually done (I doubt very much, definitely nothing like Treasury of Scripture Knowledge or Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains).

Just an observation, when Vyrso first came out, there was an outcry in the forums of huge price discrepancy between Vyrso titles and analogous Kindle titles which forced Logos to adjust their pricing strategy. Mr. Pritchett admitted that they were still fine-tuning the pricing on their products.  What it means - they were guessing the value of their products to consumers and they got it wrong the first time.  I am actually very happy with many Vyrso offerings now.

Similar situation exists when collections graduate Community Pricing and enter Pre-Pub. Logos again is making an educated guess at what customers would pay and sometimes it appears pretty frivolous. 

At the end of the day, I affirm LOGOS' right to charge whatever price they want and customers' right to buy or not to buy. I also appreciate the fact that LOGOS listens. I still think that LOGOS hasn't nailed their pricing just right, that is the reason I posted.

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 1:56 PM

Mike Aubrey:
You do realize that Amazon often sells stuff at a loss simply to drive competitors out of business, right?

actually, if before posting, you would have done due diligence and researched the subject, you would have found out that Zondervan has all 3 titles as eBooks on their website and they are identical for Amazon, Barnes&Noble, Kobo, CBD, Sony. So it seems that your argument is wrong, without merit, accusatory, too general, like saying all Americans are fat (don't you hate when people make generalized untrue statements?)

Look, Kindle titles are legitimate comparison candidates for the three titles in the OP. Whether Amazon is using predatory business practices is irrelevant. 

Both Amazon and Logos provide electronic, searchable, indexable titles, that can be annotated and read on many devices. There are a lot of differences (e-ink screen for better reading, better notes support, MUCH better library support for Amazon, on the other hand Superior search capabilities on desktop versions of Logos, better integration into study workflow).

So since we factually established that LOGOS charges around 100% more for tagging alone in this particular case, do you find it valuable/fair? What % markup would be fair?

 

Posts 28554
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 2:18 PM

toughski:
At some price point, Logos' added value should stop being a value for most users. This % price point is what I wanted to find out.

To me, it depends upon the resource. 

toughski:
Yes, publishers set prices, the same way Coke sets their prices at Walmart and at a gas station near you. But the retailer has control over their final price.

Not always. For example, research the "Agency Model." There is a growing number of Amazon titles which are set by the publisher - Amazon has zero control over the price. Sell it at the publisher price or not at all.

The following is a screen shot from a book I want in Logos (Celebration of Discipline) but is not. (Tongue Tied) Notice that there is not an "Amazon Price" for the Kindle edition. It is sold for the "Agency" set price of $12.99.

 

 

Here is Barnes & Noble:

 

Here is Sony Kobo:

 

Here is the Google eBook store:

 

Here is Books A Million:

 

Since this book is sold under the Agency Model, these stores are required to sell it for $12.99. If Vyrso were to carry it, I would quickly buy it for $12.99. I don't know what other contracts look like, but just wanted to point out that the resellers do not always have the ability to set prices.

 

toughski:
I am actually very happy with many Vyrso offerings now.

Me too. Smile

 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 2:24 PM

toughski:

actually, if before posting, you would have done due diligence and researched the subject, you would have found out that Zondervan has all 3 titles as eBooks on their website and they are identical for Amazon, Barnes&Noble, Kobo, CBD, Sony. So it seems that your argument is wrong, without merit, accusatory, too general, like saying all Americans are fat (don't you hate when people make generalized untrue statements?)

Look, Kindle titles are legitimate comparison candidates for the three titles in the OP. Whether Amazon is using predatory business practices is irrelevant. 

I don't care enough about the books in question to bother. Maybe if it was a grammar...

But beyond that, Amazon's predatory business practices are always relevant. Maybe that's not happening with these particular books, but that doesn't change the fact that there are many, many other books with these issues. It's not a question of whether Amazon's practices are predatory, every bookseller, every publisher will tell you that they are.

toughski:
So since we factually established that LOGOS charges around 100% more for tagging alone in this particular case, do you find it valuable/fair? What % markup would be fair?

Maybe. That depends on whether that's all Logos did. Much of the time they ended digitizing books from scratch for simply quality control purposes in the typing, which means that they had people type the printed edition out by hand. Higher production costs will influence the price.

Is $10 enough to get so frustrated? That's 2-3 fewer trips to Starbucks and its covered. Now if the difference was $20 vs. $40 or $40 vs $80...that'd be a different story. And this relates to the product costs question. In the case of The Christian Counselor's Manual, you're complaining about getting a 500 page book for $20. In my field (linguistics) I wish that I could get a 500 page book for $20. Try $200. If Logos digitized the book themselves, then their margins are already slim at $20.

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 3:26 PM

WinkGeneralized statements are generally wrongWink

Mike Aubrey:
Amazon's predatory business practices are always relevant. Maybe that's not happening with these particular books...

umm, you make an exclusive statement and in the same breath refuting yourself. How is that logical?

Mike Aubrey:
but that doesn't change the fact that there are many, many other books with these issues.

IF you provide specific examples and their overall % of the total Kindle offerings proves significant, THEN it would be a legitimate argument, right now you are just blowing smoke.

Mike Aubrey:
Maybe. That depends on whether that's all Logos did.

you don't know, I don't know, however it would not seem likely that they had to retype it from scratch, while ALL OTHERS DIDN'T. 

Mike Aubrey:
Is $10 enough to get so frustrated?

again it is a logical fallacy of minimizing significance of something when presenting absolute numbers as % and % as absolute numbers.  Example: Is 1 point  enough to get so frustrated? If we are talking about difference between a 3.0 and 4.0 GPA than the difference is huge. Is $4 enough to get so frustrated? When gas is already at $4/gal, paying another $4 to the gas station attendant for the privilege of him cleaning the windows as well is outrageous!

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 3:50 PM

alabama24:
To me, it depends upon the resource. 

Agreed. 

alabama24:
Not always. For example, research the "Agency Model." Amazon has zero control over the price. Sell it at the publisher price or not at all.

I appreciate your effort, but I was already very familiar with the Agency Model. Actually, reality disproves your assertion - Agency Model is the case for the titles I mentioned in the OP. Logos did set their own prices. Twice as much! 

 

Posts 67
Kilroy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 3:56 PM

Some folks can't hear the truth...because of the Kool-Aid in their ears.Big Smile

Kilroy Was Here.

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 4:16 PM

Kilroy:

Some folks can't hear the truth...because of the Kool-Aid in their ears.Big Smile

meaning what exactly?

Posts 67
Kilroy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 4:25 PM

 

Some folks feel it is their obligation to defend the parent corporation...no matter what!

Andy Tucker:

Kilroy:

At first glance, It would appear that you have a mustache. Closer investigation reveals it to be a Kool-Aid stain.

http://www.wikihow.com/Remove-Kool-Aid-from-Skin          Before:   After:              

 

 

 

Kilroy Was Here.

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 4:29 PM

toughski:

Kilroy:

Some folks can't hear the truth...because of the Kool-Aid in their ears.Big Smile

meaning what exactly?

"Kool-Aid" in this context is a reference to the Jonestown massacre, when hundreds of followers of Jim Jones committed suicide in blind obedience to their leader by drinking cyanide-laced Kool-Aid. In some cases parents giving the poison to their children before taking it themselves. It's a metaphor for blind-obedience, or blind-loyalty.

Somehow that metaphor is supposed to be humorous or clever. I have met friends and family members of those that died there. It will never be funny or clever to me.

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 5:10 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
It will never be funny or clever to me.
Yes

Same here

Posts 1513
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 5:44 PM

toughski:

I believe a more accurate analogy would be: paying a pizza delivery driver as much for delivery as the pizza itself. I have never seen anyone do that.

As someone who was a pizza delivery "expert" for 6 years, I can attest this is incorrect. Big Smile While most people tip a couple bucks, there are plenty of people who tip BIG. Sometimes even more than the cost of the pizza. Every now and then someone would tip ridiculously big - over 40 dollars for their order. Cool

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 6:17 PM

The bottom line here seems to be toughski has his opinion already made up and anyone who disagrees with his opinion is blindly following Logos. I don't mind it a bit if toughski and others do not buy the three books mentioned. They are no worse off tomorrow for the actions of Logos and Zondervan. However, many who have repeatedly requested these titles be made available can thank Logos and Zondervan for making it so. Their actions have created a situation where everybody can exercise their free choice; some will buy them and some will not. Everyone will be happy with their decisions.   Big Smile  Smile   Stick out tongue  Wink  Geeked  Cool

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 175
Silent Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2012 9:19 PM

                                                                                            Hmm HHHMMMmmm~~~ Hmm

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