Could the perceived speed problems be exacerbated by false expectations from the tutorial videos?

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Posts 707
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Nov 13 2009 7:07 AM

It is obvious that there are different perceptions on the performance of L4 in regards to speed.

I wonder if part of the problem could be that many people are expecting their installation of L4 to be as fast as seems to be portrayed in the tutorial videos.

For instance, the results from a passage guide search in the video entitled "Home Page Bible Study" seems instantaneous.

Of course anybody with a critical eye can see that there has been an edit between hitting enter and the results screen.

My suggestion is that this might be creating an unrealistic expectation among a lot of people regarding speed.

This isn't all of the problem. There seem to be legitimate issues of non-responsive behavior and there will always be performance issues related to hardware and OS configuration. 

Still, it might be helpful to publish a video related to speed issues where the results of that same passage are shown in real time. This video could highlight the advantages of the new architecture and make the case for the future oriented posture of the design (as Bob Pritchett has convincingly described on this blog). But I think it could also go a long way for creating realistic expectations in how the software is designed to work even with the best hardware.

Just a suggestion,

Russ

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 7:18 AM

I sure hope they edit down the videos. A second here and there really adds up. I'd rather spend my time learning than watch a computer think.

I have a fairly fast machine so Logos 4 performance is not an issue for me. Personally, I would be annoyed if they put a disclaimer in the videos "your experience may vary based on your hardware/configuration;" that's just a given with any computer program.

Even if they released unedited videos the speed of the presentation computer could still vary widely from the machine someone else is using. Yesterday I ran a L3 passage guide for comparison and I was happy to return to L4 land.

Posts 8639
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 7:30 AM

RE speed, you make some good points Russ.  Thanks for that.

Can I pick one tiny nit?  This is a forum not a blog.  (Don't hit me!) 

Back on point, yes I do wish the video's showed a more obvious cut (screen flip, fade, etc.)  That would be sufficient to communicate that which is obvious to the more discerning eye.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 221
James Thompson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 7:43 AM

 

Kevin Becker:

I sure hope they edit down the videos. A second here and there really adds up. I'd rather spend my time learning than watch a computer think.

I have a fairly fast machine so Logos 4 performance is not an issue for me. Personally, I would be annoyed if they put a disclaimer in the videos "your experience may vary based on your hardware/configuration;" that's just a given with any computer program.

Even if they released unedited videos the speed of the presentation computer could still vary widely from the machine someone else is using. Yesterday I ran a L3 passage guide for comparison and I was happy to return to L4 land.

Kevin,

I agree with you. Any kind of a "disclaimer" would only aggravate any discontent. I would prefer that Libronix just continue to improve the application both in terms of content and performance. And videos should be related to how to actually use the application.

That said, Russ does have a point. And while the speed in L4 is better than in L3, I would perfer a little more responsiveness. There is room for improvement and I hope Libronix continues to focus on this area of performance. I should also say that speed is one of those areas where we always want more. I guess the best application is the one that executes the command before we type it! I can't wait for that level of responsiveness....   Yes

 

Posts 707
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:02 AM

Thomas Black:

Can I pick one tiny nit?  This is a forum not a blog.  (Don't hit me!) 

Brother,

You are going to have to elaborate on your comment.

I'm certainly not wanting to hit you but I can only guess that your anticipation of violence on my part means you intended a mild rebuke of some sort.

I'm not catching the nuance of your distinction between a forum and a blog.
My post is intended to be a helpful suggestion from a supportive customer.
Is that not an appropriate topic for a forum post in your view?
This forum is full of complaints about the speed of L4.
Logos is recommending this forum as a source of information for new and prospective customers.
They even put a link in their blog post that returns search results for all of the posts related to slow performance.
Logos seems to be taking this issue head on rather than hiding it.
I am merely suggesting that a video that highlighted the speed advantages of the new architecture, addressed hardware and OS optimization and perhaps showed real time results might be helpful for those who might wonder how they should expect their installation to perform.

I am not suggesting all of the training videos be re-edited to show real time results. I am only suggesting that a performance related video be added. It could be done in a positive way that would also help establish a baseline for performance expectations on an optimized system. It is just my opinion, but I would think it would be helpful for some folks (not everyone but some) to have some context by which to judge the performance of their installation.

If this is not appropriate for this forum, please help me understand why and I will gladly refrain from offering similar suggestions in the future.

Thanks,

Russ

Posts 8639
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:28 AM

RussQuinn:

You are going to have to elaborate on your comment.

I'm certainly not wanting to hit you but I can only guess that your anticipation of violence on my part means you intended a mild rebuke of some sort.

Sorry Russ, that should have been perceived as a joke.  I'm told my humor can be a bit dry.  The "don't hit me" was because some terse answers are perceived as an attack and one is given in kind.  One of these --> Smile might have helped clarify that.

RussQuinn:
I'm not catching the nuance of your distinction between a forum and a blog.
  A Blog is a running web log of commentary usually by a single person on somewhat specific topics.  A Forum, such as this one is an interactive community of individuals all posting questions, responses and thoughts.  The distinction, which isn't of any major importance - is one of my pet peeves.  I tried to minimize it by calling it a "tiny nit".  Apparently I failed.  {Sigh.}

RussQuinn:
My post is intended to be a helpful suggestion from a supportive customer.
Is that not an appropriate topic for a forum post in your view?
It was quite helpful as my response to either side of my missed joke reflects.

Thomas Black:

RE speed, you make some good points Russ.  Thanks for that.

...

Back on point, yes I do wish the video's showed a more obvious cut (screen flip, fade, etc.)  That would be sufficient to communicate that which is obvious to the more discerning eye.

 

RussQuinn:
This forum is full of complaints about the speed of L4.
I've noticed, so has Logos and as you state they are addressing it head on. 
RussQuinn:
I am not suggesting all of the training videos be re-edited to show real time results. I am only suggesting that a performance related video be added. It could be done in a positive way that would also help establish a baseline for performance expectations on an optimized system. It is just my opinion, but I would think it would be helpful for some folks (not everyone but some) to have some context by which to judge the performance of their installation.
And I agreed with your comments here.

RussQuinn:
If this is not appropriate for this forum, please help me understand why and I will gladly refrain from offering similar suggestions in the future.
  It was all me Brother Quinn, my dry humor was missed.  Sorry for that.  You're post was directly on target, perfectly appropriate for a forum, and specifically for this forum.

Stay with us brother, I'm usually nice once you get to know me.  <<<<--Joke   Wink

I'll try to refrain from picking nits.  <-- another joke  Smile

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:34 AM

thomas....

Are you sure that you didn't switch back avatars a little too soon?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 707
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:44 AM

Thomas,

Thanks for the response.

I wasn't attacking back or being defensive.

I really was trying to understand the substance of your rebuke (if one was intended). Psalm 141:5 and all that

I've noticed enough of your helpful comments in other threads to know that you are a helpful guy. All the more reason to take you seriously.

Russ

Posts 2763
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:49 AM

Back on topic of the actual post ... (perceived rebuke should be understood and is intended)

The speed issues are very real on my machines.  For example:

1. When typing notes in every program I use when I type a letter it INSTANTLY shows up on screen. In Logos it takes often a second to three seconds to appear. Usually it is closer to a second.

2. When I click windows in most programs I am running, like Firefox, Logos 3, WordSearch, they instantly draw on the screen. With Logos it can take a few seconds for it to even respond and then I can sometimes visibly see it draw itself.

3. Loading takes anywhere from 12-18 seconds depending on what else is running.  That's not really that bad. Buy by comparison most other programs (I just loaded Word, BibleWorks 8, WordSearch 8, MS Word 2007 and then iTunes 9) and all took less time than Logos 3 and 4. The worst of this list was iTunes and it took 12 seconds.

I believe this is a memory leak. I just shut down Logos 4 and reopened it and now it is pretty fast. I have a layout called Favorite Translations/Commentaries.  It loads ESV, NASB, HCSB in one pane and NAC, IVP Bible Background and Pulpit Commentary in the other. It takes about 8 seconds to load. Again not bad. But I have a WordSearch go from not running to open with HCSB, Life Application Topical Studyies, IVP NT Commmentary, McGee's Through the Bible, Life Application Commentary, NAC, and Preachers Outline and Sermon Bible and it opens in about 4-6 seconds.

I have a Quad Core system with 8 GB of Ram and a very fast 1 TB drive running at 7200 rpm with a 16 MB cache. I also have a GeForce 8500 video card. This is a very fast system. I do Photoshop crunching of huge RAW picture files very fast.  Logos is just very slow!

Posts 707
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:50 AM

Oh, just saw that I actually said "blog" in my original post.

Now I get it . . .

The drama was all me. Sorry, Thomas.

Posts 8639
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:55 AM

Robert Pavich:

thomas....

Are you sure that you didn't switch back avatars a little too soon?

Ha ha , perhaps I did.  I may risk offending just to put it back for a bit    <-- close enough?

RussQuinn:
I wasn't attacking back or being defensive.
Thanks Russ, I knew you weren't I just needed to clarify on my end.

Here's an umbrella. Umbrella It might help stave off some of my dry humor.  Though I have no idea how.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:56 AM

Thomas,

Are you sure you're not channeling George Somsel?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 8639
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:57 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:
I believe this is a memory leak.
Kevin, next time you notice this can you take a look at your task manager and post the memory numbers before and after a restart with the same resources. 

If you're seeing a leak, it might help others for us to track this one down.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 8639
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:58 AM

Robert Pavich:
Are you sure you're not channeling George Somsel?
Either that or I'm wearing my Pavich hat today.    Has to be the second  choice, I didn't say a word about interlinears.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 687
Jon | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 9:13 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:
Logos is just very slow!

Maybe but it sounds like there are some specific problems on your system. I'm also running quad core (Q6600) and 8gb RAM (DDR2-800), I have a slightly different HD setup with a RAID 0 array across 2 drives, though probably each drive slightly slower than yours. At 2 years old my system is on the edge of the target range which Logos 4 should run well...

For comparison:

1. For me typing is more or less instant.

2. For me Logos 4 is the same as any other program, instantly draws to screen. Never had issue like 'seeing it draw itself'. Are you video card drivers up to date? DirectX up to date? I note that your video card is at the budget end of the Geforce 8 series, only 256mb RAM - maybe this is the limiting factor?

3. Loading times similar for me, and in my opinion acceptabe (or I've just got used to it Smile)

Posts 2763
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 9:28 AM

Jon Rumble:

Kevin A. Purcell:
Logos is just very slow!

Maybe but it sounds like there are some specific problems on your system. I'm also running quad core (Q6600) and 8gb RAM (DDR2-800), I have a slightly different HD setup with a RAID 0 array across 2 drives, though probably each drive slightly slower than yours. At 2 years old my system is on the edge of the target range which Logos 4 should run well...

For comparison:

1. For me typing is more or less instant.

2. For me Logos 4 is the same as any other program, instantly draws to screen. Never had issue like 'seeing it draw itself'. Are you video card drivers up to date? DirectX up to date? I note that your video card is at the budget end of the Geforce 8 series, only 256mb RAM - maybe this is the limiting factor?

3. Loading times similar for me, and in my opinion acceptabe (or I've just got used to it Smile)

Well if it is my system then why does every other program run just fine.  And what I did not mention is that when Logos is open EVERYTHING is sluggish. Not just Logos.  For example, I am typing and it is pretty fast. But there are long delays at times even in Firefox. BTW I am also running Windows 7 64 Bit. Are you? That could be an issue. I doubt it because I have the same problems on a slower system running Windows 7 32 bit and I was also running the beta on a vista system and it was very slow in the same way.

I think the problem is with "perception". Maybe people are used to slow moving software so they don't notice it on Logos 4. I am not used to it. I am used to things snapping to as my system is pretty fast most of the time.

BTW we are not on the edge of the target. Our systems were cutting edge 2 years ago. They are still pretty fast in comparison to what most people here are likely using.  Most people today have dual core systems, not quad core. Most have 4 or less GB of ram.  So this should run well on  my system if it was not just so slow. It is clearly a problem with Logos 4.

Posts 2763
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 9:29 AM

Thomas Black:

Kevin A. Purcell:
I believe this is a memory leak.
Kevin, next time you notice this can you take a look at your task manager and post the memory numbers before and after a restart with the same resources. 

If you're seeing a leak, it might help others for us to track this one down.

Are you saying the next time I notice the slow down?  It's slow from the get go.  It just goes from slow to glacial over time.

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 9:38 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:

1. When typing notes in every program I use when I type a letter it INSTANTLY shows up on screen. In Logos it takes often a second to three seconds to appear. Usually it is closer to a second.

2. When I click windows in most programs I am running, like Firefox, Logos 3, WordSearch, they instantly draw on the screen. With Logos it can take a few seconds for it to even respond and then I can sometimes visibly see it draw itself.

Kevin, have you tried watching the logs while you're having speed issues?  I was having the slow typing problem in notes when I discovered that it would start syncing notes changes as soon as I started using notes.  I turned off Use Internet, and now I type happily.  Granted, I think there are severe problems with the sync manager using up too much CPU.  And that would explain the slow downs that go away when you restart.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 10:06 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:
I have a Quad Core system with 8 GB of Ram and a very fast 1 TB drive running at 7200 rpm with a 16 MB cache. I also have a GeForce 8500 video card. This is a very fast system. I do Photoshop crunching of huge RAW picture files very fast.  Logos is just very slow!

This is odd. My system doesn't seem to be quite as good as yours and yet I'm not having the problems you're having with slow downs. I will notice some lag if the information window is open (but I don't ever use that, except to test functionality).Right now I have one Greek interlinear open (NA27), 4 Bibles (ESV, LEB, + 2 NIV's) and 5 commentaries (Baker NT, Word, Lloyd-Jones on Ephesians, IVP Bible Background and the Spirit-Filled Life Study Bible). I have no lag issues.

This suggests something other than general hardware spec's at work here. Seems to me that one suspect would be background tasks, or driver issues.(One person reported significant gains by turning off "Tea Timer" from Spybot Search and Destroy.)

Here's a bit of a long-shot: What brand of nVidia GeForce do you have? I ask because I once made the mistake of upgrading an EVGA brand nVidia GeForce driver from the nVidia site. I began having display issues and program slow-downs on some applications. I had to uninstall the nVidia driver, reboot and install the driver update from EVGA.

In reading through the system requirements, I notice that DirectX is required. Have you run dxdiag (64bit version) to check for problems with DirectX issues? I wouldn't expect any, but it's cheap and quick to check. And you never know.

Reading Bob's post yesterday about how .NET and WPS write directly to the chip (CPU?), L4 is a qualitatively different program from just about anything else out there. So it's not surprising that you're not seeing prob's with other programs, but you are with this one. You shouldn't be, with the system you have, but you are. This seems to suggest something specific to your system. But as far as I know, it could be anything from a bad BIOS byte to a faulty CPU core, or from a poorly designed hardware driver to an overly aggressive background task.

BTW,my specs: Dell Studio XPS 435MT; Win7 64bit Home Premium; 6GB DDR3 RAM; CPU: Intel i7-920 2.67GHz (8MB L3 cache); Video ATI Radeon HD 4850 (512MB)

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 687
Jon | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 10:06 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:
Well if it is my system then why does every other program run just fine. 

That's the question! if I was in your shoes I guess I'd be updating drivers and trying a better video card if I had one around, disabling aero; since the issues seem primarily to arise from graphical problems. If I had to hazard an answer to the question, I'd guess it's to do with the graphical nature of the architecture that Logos 4 is built on... The only reason I responded is I think its helpful for you to know that other people aren't having the same problems - or in other words, it is not clearly a problem with Logos 4 in general, just the way Logos 4 is running on your system.

(I'm also running Windows 7 x64)

Kevin A. Purcell:
BTW we are not on the edge of the target. Our systems were cutting edge 2 years ago. They are still pretty fast in comparison to what most people here are likely using.  Most people today have dual core systems, not quad core. Most have 4 or less GB of ram.  So this should run well on  my system if it was not just so slow. It is clearly a problem with Logos 4.

I take your point here - but - I have a new laptop which on the surface sounds less grunty than my PC. Dual core mobile CPU, 6gb RAM, 512mb ATI graphics card; compared to my 2 year old PC - Quad core, 8gb RAM, 1gb ATI graphics card with 2 GPUs on one board. But everything runs faster on the laptop, Even indexing in Logos 4 goes faster on the laptop despite the fact that the indexer will max out all four cores. In other words, the architectural improvements in CPUs and chipsets in the last 2 years do make a difference to performance even when the clock speeds don't sound that much bigger.

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