Bug: ESV - Reverse Interlinear Pane - Glitch

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Bob Turner | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:12 AM

When I turn the ESV to Hebrews 2.10, I click on words & the interlinear pane at the bottom changes to them correctly.  However, when I click on the word "perfect", it doesn't do this correctly.  

The information window shows the correct information, but not the interlinear panel.  

Screen shots: 

 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:20 AM

Bob - I can confirm this behavior. When I click on "perfect" in Hebrews 2:10 in the ESV, the RI does not line up properly. The words immediately preceding and following work as expected. 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:38 AM

alabama24:

Bob - I can confirm this behavior. When I click on "perfect" in Hebrews 2:10 in the ESV, the RI does not line up properly. The words immediately preceding and following work as expected. 

This is also a problem with the NIV84, the NIV11 and the NRSV. With the KJV, CPBKJV, and NKJV clicking on perfect shows the correct word lining up with "to make."

Only the the LEB, NLT,  and the NASB95 have it lined up with the word "perfect."

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Thomas Ball | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:58 AM

Richard DeRuiter:

alabama24:

Bob - I can confirm this behavior. When I click on "perfect" in Hebrews 2:10 in the ESV, the RI does not line up properly. The words immediately preceding and following work as expected. 

This is also a problem with the NIV84, the NIV11 and the NRSV. With the KJV, CPBKJV, and NKJV clicking on perfect shows the correct word lining up with "to make."

Only the the LEB, NLT,  and the NASB95 have it lined up with the word "perfect."

 

I can confirm this as well. I'll let dev know about it. Thanks for the thorough investigation Richard!

 

Edit: The behavior occurs in the Windows version as well. 

Edit 2: Sorry for all the edits. Upon further inspection the behavior is not a bug. The English phrase "that. . . should make. . .  perfect" is one word in Greek, but because the Greek is strictly strapped to the English word order in the panel, the individual English parts of the one Greek word are stretched over a great spatial distance on-screen. If you make your ESV panel large enough, you'll see the word Perfect. Furthermore, the reason you are able to see the word perfect in the LEB is because it leaves out the " that" and "should make" parts. Check the ESV against the LEB in your Text comparison and you'll see what I mean. 

 

 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 6 2012 12:01 PM

Tommy Ball:
Thanks for the thorough investigation Richard!

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 6 2012 12:16 PM

Tommy Ball:

Richard DeRuiter:

alabama24:

Bob - I can confirm this behavior. When I click on "perfect" in Hebrews 2:10 in the ESV, the RI does not line up properly. The words immediately preceding and following work as expected. 

This is also a problem with the NIV84, the NIV11 and the NRSV. With the KJV, CPBKJV, and NKJV clicking on perfect shows the correct word lining up with "to make."

Only the the LEB, NLT,  and the NASB95 have it lined up with the word "perfect."

 

I can confirm this as well. I'll let dev know about it. Thanks for the thorough investigation Richard!

 

Edit: The behavior occurs in the Windows version as well. 

Yes, I'm using the Windows version.

Note that the versions where nothing is displayed, clicking on the word "perfect" automatically highlights the words "that" "should make" and "perfect" in the text and there is an arrow (triangle) with the number "25" under "that" (slight variance with versions other than ESV). Right clicking on any of those words shows the lemma as τελειόω.

Somewhere the alignment for the phrase got confused with the alignment of the pointers.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 6 2012 12:23 PM

Tommy Ball:
Edit 2: Sorry for all the edits. Upon further inspection the behavior is not a bug. The English phrase "that. . . should make. . .  perfect" is one word in Greek, but because the Greek is strictly strapped to the English word order in the panel, the individual English parts of the one Greek word are stretched over a great spatial distance on-screen. If you make your ESV panel large enough, you'll see the word Perfect. Furthermore, the reason you are able to see the word perfect in the LEB is because it leaves out the " that" and "should make" parts. Check the ESV against the LEB in your Text comparison and you'll see what I mean. 

Yes I can see that, if I open the ESV in a floating window and widen it over two screens. And I see that you agree that the word τελειόω is translated by a phrase that is spread out over a realatively long vers. But this is not expected nor wanted behavior. If I did not have two screens, I would not be able to scroll to the controlling Greek term and would only be able to see the pointers. Would it not be better for "that" and "should make" to be linked directly with τελειόω, or independently to the rev int, pointers (similar to handling untranslated terms)? The lemma on the right click does this, why not the rev int?

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Thomas Ball | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 6 2012 12:49 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

Tommy Ball:
Edit 2: Sorry for all the edits. Upon further inspection the behavior is not a bug. The English phrase "that. . . should make. . .  perfect" is one word in Greek, but because the Greek is strictly strapped to the English word order in the panel, the individual English parts of the one Greek word are stretched over a great spatial distance on-screen. If you make your ESV panel large enough, you'll see the word Perfect. Furthermore, the reason you are able to see the word perfect in the LEB is because it leaves out the " that" and "should make" parts. Check the ESV against the LEB in your Text comparison and you'll see what I mean. 

Yes I can see that, if I open the ESV in a floating window and widen it over two screens. And I see that you agree that the word τελειόω is translated by a phrase that is spread out over a realatively long vers. But this is not expected nor wanted behavior. If I did not have two screens, I would not be able to scroll to the controlling Greek term and would only be able to see the pointers. Would it not be better for "that" and "should make" to be linked directly with τελειόω, or independently to the rev int, pointers (similar to handling untranslated terms)? The lemma on the right click does this, why not the rev int?

If we linked "that" and "should make" to the English verb form then the English  word order would be out of order. The issue here is the way the ESV translates the verb into English and stretches it over the length of the verse. I could however see an argument for making the Greek verb the center rather than try to encapsulate the entirety of the English parts that make up the Greek verb. 

I set up a morphological filter for @VAAN (the form "perfect" in this context is taking) and have skimmed around a bit in Hebrews, and I cannot find a similar area where the ESV translates that form in such a way where the pieces of the verb are strewn out within the verse. All that to say that I think this is very unique. I'd love if anyone can find a similar instance. Regardless I'll put in a case for it just in case they can do something about it. 

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 6 2012 12:59 PM

Tommy Ball:
Regardless I'll put in a case for it just in case they can do something about it. 

This is one of those times where you're going to need to decide whether a bit of time creating the expected behavior is worth whatever support time will be given to explaining that it's really not a problem.

BTW, this happens not only with the ESV, but also the NIV84, NIV11, and the NRSV. My guess is that those are the 4 most used translations, or at least 4 of the most used translations.

(I'm not aware of another place where this happens quite like this either.)

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Thomas Ball | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 6 2012 2:14 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
This is one of those times where you're going to need to decide whether a bit of time creating the expected behavior is worth whatever support time will be given to explaining that it's really not a problem.

 

I wasn't trying to diminish importance of the undesired behavior. I have reported the bug to development. Thanks again for pointing this out everyone.    

 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 6 2012 3:41 PM

Tommy Ball:
I'd love if anyone can find a similar instance.

In the ESV, you could consider consider in Hebrews 3:1 that has 6 words between you and consider.

Hebrews 4:1 has 6 words between while and "still stands"

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