4.5c Beta 1 - Program Setting - Doctrinal Choice ?

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, May 22 2012 8:28 PM | Locked

Noticed Logos 4.5c Beta 1 Program Settings has Doctrinal Choice with three options:

Wondering how Doctrinal Choice affects Logos 4 usage ?

Keep Smiling Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 22 2012 9:07 PM | Locked

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Wondering how Doctrinal Choice affects Logos 4 usage ?

This is such a tempting question. I must behave myself. I must behave myself. I must ...Zip it!Stick out tongue

Behaving myself, there's a momentous event implied - the Great Schism of 1054 has been resolved.YesBig Smile

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 22 2012 9:15 PM | Locked

What do you choose if you are decidedly not Protestant or Catholic? Surprise

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 22 2012 9:31 PM | Locked

Josh:
What do you choose if you are decidedly not Protestant or Catholic?

catholicWink

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 22 2012 9:36 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:

Josh:
What do you choose if you are decidedly not Protestant or Catholic?

catholicWink

Guess it is a good choice as catholic does mean universal ….. I left it as Catholic but as person born into the Lutheran church and now considering myself anglican, I am not sure if catholics would want me in their camp or  push me into protestant circles..hehheheheh

 

-Dan

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 12:41 AM | Locked

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Wondering how Doctrinal Choice affects Logos 4 usage ?

Ditto. Wondering why this matters. There is no product functionality that I know of that would or should behave differently depending on Doctrinal Choice. Perhaps it's for some future envisioned feature? Maybe it's for Faithlife? But I can imagine a lot of people wouldn't want to reveal that info to other Faithlife users.

Wondering whether maybe they are just trying to collect the data to find out what percentage of their existing user base self-identifies as Catholic so as to know how much effort to put towards Catholic resources. But if that's what they're doing, it's the wrong way to go about it. Existing user base would be very skewed based on what resources are already available.

Also it appears that the powers that be at Logos still haven't learned from all your advocacy, MJ, that there are other Christians in the world -- lots of them -- besides Catholics and Protestants. And once you get people identifying their Doctrinal Choice in the software, you open up a huge can of worms. If indeed, as may very well be the case, the overwhelming majority of their existing users and target future users are either clearly Protestant or Catholic, then perhaps rather than Undecided they should put "Other". And they should give people the option of not answering the question. "Undecided" doesn't have that connotation -- it seems to mean rather that you haven't decided where your doctrinal position lies, not that you simply haven't gotten around to answering the question or would prefer not to.

I also noticed that hovering over the question mark icon next to that option does not bring up tool tips help, as all the other ones do. If they had that text, this is where they could explain "whatever you choose here will remain private" or "you don't have to answer this question: if you leave it as Undecided that means you prefer not to answer it" or whatever is appropriate.

Dan Francis:
Guess it is a good choice as catholic does mean universal ….. I left it as Catholic but as person born into the Lutheran church and now considering myself anglican, I am not sure if catholics would want me in their camp or  push me into protestant circles..hehheheheh

Also many Mennonites/Anabaptists consider themselves another "third way" and wouldn't identify as Protestant either, since Protestants persecuted them during the Reformation.

This whole thing could get very dicey. I really question the wisdom of adding this option as just a binary choice. Even census forms and seminary applications which ask you to identify your denomination (and list a dozen possible choices) often fail to include a good option for everyone. You certainly need a catch-all "Other" regardless.

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Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 12:44 AM | Locked

A believer, Christian.

Blessings in Christ.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 12:46 AM | Locked

Tes:

A believer, Christian.

Yes

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 1:36 AM | Locked

Dan Francis:
I am not sure if catholics would want me in their camp

You're quite welcome in my favorite "supra-denomination" - ACELO (Anglican, Catholic, Church of the East, Lutheran, Orthodox). Of course, my family tree is a banyan - weak on bloodlines, strong on inclusiveness.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 1:49 AM | Locked

Rosie Perera:
I really question the wisdom of adding this option as just a binary choice.

My guess based on absolutely no information which is much more fun when you are guessing. I wonder if they are responding to the complaints that certain texts are treated as canonical. I would love it if we had a "Canon" setting. However, there is a huge flaw in the current choice - how do our Jewish users identify themselves?

Rosie Perera:
powers that be at Logos still haven't learned from all your advocacy, MJ

Must be something in the Bellingham air that keeps them soooo provincial.Wink Let's require that they spend weekends in Vancouver B.C., San Francisco and Seattle in an ongoing rotation. I know 2 great Russian Orthodox Cathedrals in San Francisco, a Nestorian group in Seattle ... Rosie you have to fill in the Vancouver slot.Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 1:59 AM | Locked

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Wondering how Doctrinal Choice affects Logos 4 usage ?

Yes, that's definitely something that should be explained.

  • Will it trigger the display of lectionaries? But then they need to discern further.
  • Will it drive the links to ressources like ANF/NPNF as well as some bibles, where "protestant editions" and "catholic editions" exist? But this means, I - as an evangelical - need to identify as a Catholic to have them work in my Catholic Scholars package (but then why use settings? Logos knows my library!)
  • Will it help focus the homepage content? But then it should be a part of Homepage settings - after all, we would expect the other parts of the software to work regardless of Doctrinal Choice. I can't believe it's intended to say hide search hits about e.g. Jesus' brothers from Catholic users. Moreover, even if the setting was intended to improve on the meaningfulness of such unclear things as "rank" in search results, it should be clearly explained which features are affected and how. Maybe a hard-core Lutheran is researching the first Vatican Council?

One aspect of doctrinal choice is its multi-dimensionality. A binary choice not only will leave out the "neither" (which may definitely not be undecided, but e.g. Eastern Orthodox) and the broad ranges within the two groups, but also the large overlap of both groups and additional dimensions such as liberal versus conservative (an evangelical protestant may identify much more with a conservative Roman Catholic on a large number of aspects than both do with the liberal wings of their own denomination and vice versa), of "ancient ressourcement" versus modern versus post-modern, of leaning towards determinism or human freedom of choice etc....

Thus I'd prefer Logos to explain the feature to us and give it another, meaningful name that clearly indicates what is going on here.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 3:20 AM | Locked

NB.Mick:
Thus I'd prefer Logos to explain the feature to us and give it another, meaningful name that clearly indicates what is going on here.

Yes

For now, I will leave the question unanswered—However, even that is an answer = "I don't know what I am" Geeked

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James W Bennett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 3:27 AM | Locked

Here in the D.C. region we dozens of parishes that are Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox. I don't believe that we have any congregations that belong to the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorians).

I would say that I and my fellow Orthodox believers are most assuredly decided and most definitely are neither Catholic nor Protestant. And neither are the Oriental Orthodox or the Assyrian Church of the East.

And Bellingham should be aware of the Orthodox tradition, they keep publishing primary source material from the Fathers of the Church Big Smile. And besides, there is even an Orthodox community in that sleepy little town of Bellingham Big Smile

---

James W Bennett

http://syriac.tara-lu.com/

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 4:30 AM | Locked

As the way they have it here; it is a huge mistake, and it can only anger people.  Most people know what faith tradition they belong to.  Therefore, undecided just doesn't work.

The case is even more complex if you toss in the groups who are Christian but do not believe in the Trinity (please no theological debate here on the proper definition for the term Christian) like Mormons.  They too do not consider themselves Catholic or Protestant.

If they would like L4 to operate differently for different faith traditions, then Logos should say how the program would behave different; not ask the question if we are Catholic, Protestant, or Undecided.  

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 4:59 AM | Locked

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Wondering how Doctrinal Choice affects Logos 4 usage ?

I am going to go out on a limb here and take a guess. Smile

My guess is that this will effect things like which advertisements show up on the home page. Perhaps also which books tend to show up in discovery on the home page.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 6:08 AM | Locked

I call myself Protestant, (some say cult, others say sect) but I do not want my choice to affect anything unless I specifically tell it to. I also purchase products that interest me, no matter which label they have on them. I receive email alerts for just about everything Logos has.

Most of this is speculation, but it would be good to know the reason why the choice was given, the options and the limitation.

Logos, how about an explanation!

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 6:11 AM | Locked

alabama24:
My guess is that this will effect things like which advertisements show up on the home page. Perhaps also which books tend to show up in discovery on the home page.

That was my thought too.  I bet it is sent to the Logos servers to be saved there too for the purpose of email marketing.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 6:16 AM | Locked

Todd, it needs further explanation. If that is the case, give the user the option to have all delivered. Even though I cannot afford it, I would like to have all of the academic resources that Logos sells on my computer.

I buy books by interest, no matter what Publishing House, or Denomination it comes from. Graduate research often requires you to research a subject from various angles without concern as to denomination. An authors/writers work is judged based upon what he/she brings to the table.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 6:24 AM | Locked

Lynden Williams:
If that is the case, give the user the option to have all delivered.

If Todd is right, "undecided" would be that choice.

Lynden Williams:
it needs further explanation.

Agreed, but there is no reason to get worked up over this yet (not that you are). This is beta software, and we should not expect full explanations for everything just yet. I trust that there will be an explanation before this ships. 

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 23 2012 6:33 AM | Locked

alabama24:

Lynden Williams:
If that is the case, give the user the option to have all delivered.

If Todd is right, "undecided" would be that choice.

Lynden Williams:
it needs further explanation.

Agreed, but there is no reason to get worked up over this yet (not that you are). This is beta software, and we should not expect full explanations for everything just yet. There should be an explanation before this ships. My guess is that Bob will reply in 5, 4, 3...

I agree that we should not get worked up over this, but people do get worked up if they believe that a company is prying too much into their personal lives.  This setting simply breaks all good programming standards and all good communication skills.  It is simply too vague.  If this setting is for the homepage, then it should be with the rest of the settings on the homepage.  If it is for marketing, then it needs to be labeled as a marking option.

Because it is so vague, people are going to write stories on what this setting is for.  And Logos needs to have their hands slapped for putting something out that is so vague that no one can figure it out.

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