"finding Granville Sharp" is a sort of litmus test for the capabilities of Bible software."

Page 1 of 2 (35 items) 1 2 Next >
This post has 34 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Nov 16 2009 3:04 PM

A famous person once said:

"If you've been around Bible software, you know that many folks use "finding Granville Sharp" as a sort of litmus test for the capabilities of their Bible software."

And I've felt that to be a pretty accurate statement.

I've used v3 to find these constructions, but now I'd like to use V4 and give it a shot...

Can Rick Brannan possibly chime in and get me started? I've had no luck so far in duplicating your syntax search from the PDF posted on the blog.

Also....since the morph search actually replaces the Graphical Query...is it possible to construct a Granville-sharp search in the morph search in V4?

 

http://blog.logos.com/mt-cgi/mt-search.cgi?search=granville&IncludeBlogs=1&limit=20

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 26947
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 8:18 PM

Sorry, but I gave Rick some time to chime Smile

Yea, his search is quite convoluted. But here's my simple Granville Sharp:-

Word 1: ((Part of Speech = article))
Anything — Match 0 to 1 units
Word 2: Louw-Nida Domain = 12: Supernatural Beings and Powers AND ((Part of Speech = adjective AND Number = singular) OR (Part of Speech = noun AND Number = singular) OR (Part of Speech = verb AND Mood = participle AND Number = singular)) — Highlight
Anything — Match 0 to 2 units
Connector 1
 Word 3: Lexical Form (no marks) = "και"
Word 4: ((Part of Speech ≠ article)) — May Repeat 0 to 1 times
Word 5: Part of Speech = Word 2 AND Number = Word 2 AND Case = Word 2 AND Gender = Word 2 — Highlight

 

It gets 42 hits in L3 but includes all the quoted passages for God and Saviour, Lord and Saviour --> I haven't done in L4 as yet!

If you saw my BUG report then believe that doing this in a Morph Search is almost impossible because of the equality required between Word 2 and Word 5 (the simplest requirement is that they have the same Case) and because there is no simple, effective expression to exclude the article in Word 4, unlike L3!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 1408
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2009 9:37 PM

Robert Pavich:

A famous person once said:

"If you've been around Bible software, you know that many folks use "finding Granville Sharp" as a sort of litmus test for the capabilities of their Bible software."

And I've felt that to be a pretty accurate statement.

I've used v3 to find these constructions, but now I'd like to use V4 and give it a shot...

Can Rick Brannan possibly chime in and get me started? I've had no luck so far in duplicating your syntax search from the PDF posted on the blog.

Also....since the morph search actually replaces the Graphical Query...is it possible to construct a Granville-sharp search in the morph search in V4?

http://blog.logos.com/mt-cgi/mt-search.cgi?search=granville&IncludeBlogs=1&limit=20

I knew this would come back to haunt me. Big Smile If you think I'm famous, you really need to get out more.

The queries I had for v3 should be able to be used as patterns for v4 queries for OpenText.org. I've been meaning to look into Granville Sharp and the Cascadia Syntax Graphs, but simply haven't had time or opportunity yet. I don't know that I will until after Thanksgiving. I'm responding to this thread so it shows up in my "Your Discussions" link on the forum page, so I won't forget about it.

If you're really interested, though, I believe Dan Wallace has a complete list in this paper: http://bible.org/article/sharpi-redivivus-i-reexamination-granville-sharp-rule. Also know that he's recently (in the past year) published a version of his thesis on Granville Sharp with Peter Lang, "Granville Sharp's Canon and Its Kin: Semantics and Significance". I'd guess there's a list there too. It could stimulate some thought on the problem.

The basic problem is that Granville Sharp's rule isn't quite exactly how most people sum it up — two substantives that agree in case/number/gender share the first substantive's article. As I recall it is actually singular "personal" substantives (?) that are *not* proper, and that ends up causing some of the complexity. That is, there are lexical restrictions as well as syntactic and grammatical restrictions/patterns to account for.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2009 1:38 AM

Dave,

I'll try this.

But isn't there a "must not be present" requirement that could be joined to the article in the second part?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2009 1:41 AM

Rick...

Are you trying to teach me to fish? Instead, just serve me up a plate of "Captain Ricks beer battered fish and hush puppies" thank you....

Big Smile

 

I have read Dan's article and it was very informative.

Most people do misquote the rule, and you're right about the personal aspect...tough to do.

I'll give it a shot....but try not to fill up on turkey and fall asleep...we'll be waiting.... Surprise

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 26947
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2009 5:40 AM

Robert Pavich:
But isn't there a "must not be present" requirement that could be joined to the article in the second part?

Yes.

the way they implemented Anything in L4 is such that you cannot apply a number of units to restrict its range. So it would be better to start with a Clause Component and make everyhting hang off that!

Clause Component

Word 1: ((Part of Speech = article))
Anything — Match 0 to 1 units
Word 2: Louw-Nida Domain = 12: Supernatural Beings and Powers AND ((Part of Speech = adjective AND Number = singular) OR (Part of Speech = noun AND Number = singular) OR (Part of Speech = verb AND Mood = participle AND Number = singular)) — Highlight
Anything — Match 0 to 2 units
Connector 1
 Word 3: Lexical Form (no marks) = "και"
Word 4: ((Part of Speech ≠ article)) — May Repeat 0 to 1 times
Word 5: Part of Speech = Word 2 AND Number = Word 2 AND Case = Word 2 AND Gender = Word 2 — Highlight

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2009 8:06 AM

Ok dave...trouble shooting time..what did I do wrong...I got 0 results.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 726
Chris Elford | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2009 9:46 AM

Rick Brannan:

The queries I had for v3 should be able to be used as patterns for v4 queries for OpenText.org. I've been meaning to look into Granville Sharp and the Cascadia Syntax Graphs, but simply haven't had time or opportunity yet. I don't know that I will until after Thanksgiving.

Rick,

Thanks for your involvement in this one, also. I'll be trying to follow it as I want to become proficient in the original language search capabilities. If you have a chance to engage with us wrt my question in http://community.logos.com/forums/t/4835.aspx I'd appreciate it.

In order to help you get to it, may I encourage you to take a short drive north, say 40 miles (which will become 65 kilometers) because then Thanksgiving will be over and we can get your input Smile

Honestly, you need the break, so enjoy the holiday, next week!

Chris

Posts 26947
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2009 2:49 PM

Robert Pavich:
Ok dave...trouble shooting time..what did I do wrong...

You need to use "Skip Levels" for everything directly connected to the clause  (a Word is preceded by at least a Word Group + Head Term).

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 7:03 AM

dave,

thanks..

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 26947
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 7:04 PM

Robert Pavich:

dave,

thanks..

Bob,

I found it didn't work very well (if at all!) so i resorted to the more complex method. Anything without limits (eg. 0 to 2 units) is the problem.

I'm finding it harder work than L3, so how are you going?

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 19 2009 3:06 AM

Dave,
I got it to work BUT..when i used "should not be present" for the second article...it fails..and I don't know why...

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 27 2009 5:56 AM

Dave,

On the latest Beta; your search worked...even with the "must not be present" checked for the second article...

I haven't checked the accuracy yet...I was just happy to get results that seem correct at first glance... Surprise

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 26947
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 27 2009 3:54 PM

OK, I'll boot into Wwindows 7 and look at the beta!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 26947
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 27 2009 6:01 PM

Dave Hooton:

OK, I'll boot into Wwindows 7 and look at the beta!

I can't even get the same results as you, with the same query!

I get  81 results and many important ones are missing!

ro 15:6, 2cor 1.3, 2 cor 8.19, 2 cor 11.31, eph 1.3, 1 thess 3.11.

I haven' time to analyse it further, but something is amiss.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 27 2009 6:47 PM

Dave Hooton:
I can't even get the same results as you, with the same query!

My laptop is annointed. Confused

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 26947
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 27 2009 8:26 PM

Robert Pavich:

Dave Hooton:
I can't even get the same results as you, with the same query!

My laptop is annointed. Confused

I'm going to post something in PC Beta, anointed one!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 31
Josh Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 29 2010 8:48 AM

Do you have to be an MVP to join this discussion? :-)

I have also played around with this a bit and haven't quite figured it out so far. Once someone figures out, a video tutorial and/or a step by step guide would be great. So, far I haven't seen much in the way tutorials videos on the Morph & Syntax features (I get why, most people probably don't use this anyway) in L4. Any guides would be awesome as I'd like to become more proficient with these features.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 29 2010 8:55 AM

Josh,

Ok...first off...what are YOU doing posting here....a MERE MORTAL..... Big Smile Sheesh...you don't even have any fancy letters by your name....

Well...I understand your situation....I'm really at that point also....just getting my feet wet.'

If you go to the wiki page....you'll see some syntax searching help that Dave Hooton put up and also if you go to the Logos blog...there are some entries (you have to search for them) and they apply to V3 but the knowledge is transferrable to V4 basically.

 

My advice?

Just find a relatively simple passage; and try and duplicate it....then if you have no success...post it here and we can talk.

Also, it helps a lot to read the glossary for the cascadia and Open text resources...it helps to get familiar with their particular "logic" and terms.

give it a shot and come back and I'm sure that just through repetition, you'll get it.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 29 2010 8:59 AM

Josh Wilson:

Do you have to be an MVP to join this discussion? :-)

I have also played around with this a bit and haven't quite figured it out so far. Once someone figures out, a video tutorial and/or a step by step guide would be great. So, far I haven't seen much in the way tutorials videos on the Morph & Syntax features (I get why, most people probably don't use this anyway) in L4. Any guides would be awesome as I'd like to become more proficient with these features.

First read: http://wiki.logos.com/A_Strategy_for_Syntax_Search

Also these threads on syntax searching should help

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/6312.aspx

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/8109.aspx

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/9154.aspx

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/8872.aspx

Page 1 of 2 (35 items) 1 2 Next > | RSS