Logos v Accordance 9: Greek Language Tools - an honest appraisal!

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Stephen Thorp | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, May 30 2012 7:51 AM

Hi, I've recently had a discussion that suggests that Accordance is the better package for Greek language studies. I'm more than content with my Logos Leaders Package, but I would appreciate an honest assessment from those of you with higher Logos packages (and a higher Greek understanding) as to whether you think it's true that Logos is outstripped by Accordance when it comes to language studies, particularly for Greek? As I would like to know what advice to give. Thank you..

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 8:07 AM

Stephen, I won't speak to 'tools' (your question); frankly I think a lot has to do with personal needs. But the big area I credit Accordance with is a lot of 'side' documents that really come in handy when looking at the greek (manuscripts, the same text in other languages, etc). I get the feeling the Logos customer base vs the Accordance customer base may be the issue. More troubling is the likelihood of future growth in this area; these type of resources tend to 'sit' in Logos for years.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 8:33 AM

From a more general perspective of languages, the one clear advantage is that Accordance has a working audio feature for Greek and Hebrew. I'm not sure when we'll see this in Logos. This is something that you can't get from a book. Anyone have an idea when we'll get this? 

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 8:39 AM

Stephen,

It depends on what your long term needs are as to which has the better tools. Those who have Accordance (I don't, but many of my seminary profs did) tell me it has better tools for language study. But it stops there. Logos has much the better breadth & scope of resources available for a library, & its language tools were adequate to get me through seminary--even in in versions 2 & 3 , & are even better now.

If you're on a doctoral track focused on language, you may want the other guys. But if you want a library, or if you're on a pastoral track, or both, you'll eventually want Logos even if you also choose the other guys.

Just my $.02.

Grace & Peace,
Bill


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Garrett Ho | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 9:10 AM

Stephen Thorp:
whether you think it's true that Logos is outstripped by Accordance when it comes to language studies

What does "outstripped" mean in this case?

I have L4 Platinum as well as the scholars version of the "other software." Logos is slow in comparison, and takes a few more keystrokes to use, but it does pretty much everything. Speed is the tradeoff we pay to have a much larger library and some additional functionality (better synchronizing, for example). I've found that I use Logos almost exclusively these days.

To be honest, it is hard for us to recommend a package when we don't know what your needs are. Are you doing complex linguistic searches on a regular basis, or do you need something like an exegetical guide and add-on lexicons?

Posts 383
Stephen Thorp | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 10:08 AM

Garrett Ho:
What does "outstripped" mean in this case?

 

Hi, thanks everyone for your quick replies.

 

Sorry Garrett, I just meant 'outstripped' in the sense of  'out performed', 'easier to use' , greater capacity to get to the meaning of the text'. My son is at theological college and tells me that his professors pretty much echo BillS's remarks that seminary profs think that Accordance has better tools for language study. I'm asking if folk agree. Logos is a great piece of software but it isn't cheap, so it's a shame if one feels (or is being encouraged) to buy another package because 'the tools' are better. Surprise

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BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 10:38 AM

Hi Stephen,

What track is your son on? Pastoral? Academic? If pastoral, I'd commend Logos because its tools are just fine for that & the library will serve him for a lifetime. (I'm 9 years into full time ministry, 10 years out of seminary, now, & I'm SO THANKFUL I went with Logos...)

Grace & Peace,
Bill


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iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
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Posts 3747
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 10:39 AM

I should add that language tools aren't the only tools a pastor needs. I'd suggest that Logos' exegetical guides & passage guides are without equal--especially as the library grows.... fingertip access to all in your library about your passage of the week.

Grace & Peace,
Bill


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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 11:07 AM

Stephen Thorp:

Hi, I've recently had a discussion that suggests that Accordance is the better package for Greek language studies. I'm more than content with my Logos Leaders Package, but I would appreciate an honest assessment from those of you with higher Logos packages (and a higher Greek understanding) as to whether you think it's true that Logos is outstripped by Accordance when it comes to language studies, particularly for Greek? As I would like to know what advice to give. Thank you..

Hm. Just a maybe unrelated observation: I'm not really "in the know", but what I sometimes read or hear is that seminaries around here (Germany/Switzerland) that require deeper Greek language studies seem to base this on BibleWorks, which I don't know but regard as a tool focused only on this area - but then the students here may not have Mac hardware accross the board in the firstplace. 

FWIW the German Bible Society, who are behind all the texts such as NA and the LXX, seems to promote Accordance now, to a certain extent, too, but still regard SESB (which is L3!) as the "flagship" for serious study in the original languages.

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 383
Stephen Thorp | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 11:40 AM

BillS:
What track is your son on? Pastoral? Academic?

 

Hi Bill,

Many thanks for your response. I'd have to say at this stage primary Academic (athough there is naturally some pastoral).He's in his first year of a three year theology degree and although he has been studying Greek he wants to take it as a major option next year. Hence the discussions about getting the right 'tools for the job'. Like me he already has Logos to Leaders level and I was surprised that it was felt that Logos might not be adequate.

I too am grateful for Logos, I've been ordained 20 years this year, but only discovered Logos 6 years ago. I too am thankful.

Posts 452
Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 12:16 PM

Stephen Thorp:

Like me he already has Logos to Leaders level and I was surprised that it was felt that Logos might not be adequate.

If he's basing that opinion on the package he has, then he's right. I started with Bible Study, which has the same Original Language resources as Leaders, and even at my incredibly low level of language knowledge I wasn't happy with the language tools. I went to the Original Languages package and now Gold, and it's a world of difference.

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 12:44 PM

Does anyone have any particular examples of things Accordance does better in their opinion? I was hoping to learn something from this thread that would help my own original language study, and I think it's important that Logos keep trying to push the envelope on academic/scholarly study support. But so far all I have seen here is opinions with no examples or basis for that opinion?!

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 12:50 PM

Dominick Sela:

Does anyone have any particular examples of things Accordance does better in their opinion? I was hoping to learn something from this thread that would help my own original language study, and I think it's important that Logos keep trying to push the envelope on academic/scholarly study support. But so far all I have seen here is opinions with no examples or basis for that opinion?!

 

Reads like u r looking for screenshots. To me that would be as inappropriate as posting your own website where you get money for services rendered. But, hey it's been done and and is still being done, so I guess a posting of screenshot(s) would be right there side by side to it.............

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 12:53 PM

Stephen Thorp:
I'd have to say at this stage primary Academic (athough there is naturally some pastoral).He's in his first year of a three year theology degree and although he has been studying Greek he wants to take it as a major option next year. Hence the discussions about getting the right 'tools for the job'. Like me he already has Logos to Leaders level and I was surprised that it was felt that Logos might not be adequate.

For original language study using Logos, may want to consider upgrading Logos base package.  Scholar's Gold includes all Original Language resources along with my favorite commentary series: the UBS Handbooks with translation and cross cultural insights; wiki Logos Resource Reviews has => UBS New Testament Handbook Series and => UBS Old Testament Handbook Series that includes link to => Logos 4 Blog: Quickly Access the UBS Handbooks  

Currently, my second highest prioritized commentary series is => The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges (58 vols.) that is currently not in any base package

My favorite Logos 4 feature is visual filter highlighting using Logos Greek Morphology so can visually see range of verbal expression in a passage; wiki Extended Tips for Visual Filters  has => Examples of visual filters  that has screen shots with Logos Greek Morphology visual filters and corresponding highlighting palette, which are usable in Greek and English resources with appropriate tagging (e.g. English Reverse Interlinear and Greek resources with morphological tagging).  Caveat: visual filters can take many seconds to initially appear on screen.

A Greek New Testament to consider is => Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament plus Logos has pre-publication => Lexham Discourse Hebrew Bible Bundle (6 vols.) that needs more pre-orders to change status from "Almost There!"

Thread => Suggestions for Logos4 Maps Extended has a number of suggestions for improving Logos 4 maps while noting Accordance has a number of map customization options.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 453
Mike S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 2:34 PM

I use both, but frankly I start with the text Accordance because of their approach/philosophy, not resources. I'm no PhD., but I have a fair grip on biblical Greek and work to grow that all the time. 

The strength of Logos is the implementation of an electronic "book"... when you look at the text in Logos of a bible or a monograph, it looks like an excerpt from a book. I mostly acts like a book with really cool search and highlighting features. 

Accordance's strength is in it's non-book approach: it approaches the texts as a database... a collection of structure text that is totally highly manipulatable in place. Logos starts with the text in a book form and then tears you off to a separate view/tool to view a list of non-contiguous verses in a contiguous form (i.e. passage lists). With Accordance, you choose how and what you want to view right in the the viewing space... search, view, passage lists, morph search, etc... are all viewed in a single window. This is very hard to explain without showing you... it's not that you cannot do all this stuff in Logos, but it just requires a lot more work and lots of moving parts (hence the reason Logos takes 10x the resources). 

For these reasons, it is VERY easy to doing things that are highly complex, and in some cases, impossible in Logos, very simply in Accordance. 

Ironically, that very strength is its very weakness the moment you move from pure bible text to things like highlighting (looks like someone threw up a bunch of colors and horrid patterns on the page in accordance), Notes (yes, it's actually true.. Accordance bible notes don't allow you to link to other books, only verse references), and "Library" or "Collection" searches. The "Search All" feature in Acc. is a hack. There's no such thing as notes on a commentary or monograph in Accordance, you have to create something called a "User Tool" (think super-simplistic PBB with internal editor and very limited functionality and far less formatting). 

That said, Accordance's features around Greek textual searches are wicked-fast and easy to understand, pull in LXX and non-blblical Greek text and gain insights to translation in a context that is just not what it could be in Logos... think morph search combined with BWS instantly on anything in a tightly integrated and wholistic view. 

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 3:14 PM

NB.Mick:
but what I sometimes read or hear is that seminaries around here (Germany/Switzerland) that require deeper Greek language studies seem to base this on BibleWorks, which I don't know but regard as a tool focused only on this area - but then the students here may not have Mac hardware accross the board in the firstplace. 
Coming from seminary, those of us use a PC, we used BW to study Greek and Hebrew.  The people who used a Mac used Accordance for their study in the languages.  Why, because these tools rock when it comes to the original languages.  I could do some complex searches in BW7 that I could not figure out how to do in L3.

There were several of us who used L3/L4 in seminary, but none of us used L4 for word studies for the reasons that Mike S. stated above.

Posts 1956
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 3:20 PM

Both programs will do amazing things that we couldn't do easily not that many years ago, so it is partly down to preference.

As far as my preference goes, aside from performance and bug issues with Logos 4 Mac which have been discussed fully in other threads on these forums and also on various blogs, I prefer Accordance.  Accordance has a text oriented philosophy and that for me makes language studies easier.  Not just for original language studies, but also in translation work. I can do it on Logos, but the approach Logos takes feels more oriented to managing and leveraging large amounts of resource material... kind of a library on steroids sort of thing.  Logos sometimes feels like it gets in the way of textual work, but this is very subjective and is based on my work flow preferences.

Others feel differently, so its down to each individual. Hope this helps.

Posts 468
BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 3:30 PM

Greetings,

Since, your son already owns the Logos Leaders base Package, it might be more advisable for him to upgrade to the next level which just happens to be the Original Language Library(JG). It, will give him a larger library for cheaper, than he would get if he moved to Accordance. He, would also be able to use that library, on PC, MAC, Ipad/Ipone, Android, and wherever he goes.

If, your son doesn't own a Mac and is primarily a Windows/PC user (and if he just wants another program) I would definitely not recommend Accordance, but would recommend BibleWorks9 instead as it actually has Greek Manuscripts images, New transcriptions of Greek texts, The CNTTS NT Critical Apparatus, and many Greek Morphological texts all in the one base-package.

However, it may be cheaper for a seminary student such as your son to simply use a Logos academic discount and upgrade to the Original Language Library (JG) or higher.

 

 

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

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Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 30 2012 3:37 PM

Now we're talking! I get the idea, thanks for the clarifications on what Accordance offers. I hope it spurs some ideas inside Logos although I am sure they have looked at Accordance very carefully.

Posts 2864
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 31 2012 7:02 AM

Dominick Sela:
Does anyone have any particular examples of things Accordance does better in their opinion?

scroll

show your notes as you type

start up quickly

Sorry its not language study specific, but its significant when comparing to two in basic performance.

Logos has more resources to offer so you get a larger selection of library. You also get more hand holding for those who are not serious language scholars. The exegetical study guide is a quick way to get at original language and no one else has anything that compares to it.

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