Charismatic/Pentecostal works seem to be in short supply.

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John T Reagan | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jun 6 2012 9:14 AM

I installed L4 Basic a few weeks ago and am still getting used to the new interface/conventions.  I went looking for a commentary coming from a Charismatic/Pentecostal viewpoint.  I came up dry and I'm wondering why.  (No rhyme intended.  :>)  Seems to me that some of this kind of work should be included in the Basic package.  The only thing I can find with a Charismatic/Pentecostal orientation is Foundations of Pentecostal Theology, a systematic theology, not a commentary.

Is there a prejudice against Charismatic/Pentecostal works at Logos?

I love some of the classic commentaries and am grateful to have them available through Logos, but am tired of having to wade around the cessationist assumptions most of them make.  When I use a commentary I'm looking for clear thinking that is free of false logic to help me think things through.  I found a post from 2010 in the Suggestions section of this forum that had lots and lots of good suggestions -- the reply list is exceptionally long -- so it's not like the Logos managers don't have material to draw from.  Which brings me back to the question I posed above -- is the reason these materials are lacking because Logos management just doesn't like the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement?  I hope I'm wrong.

Would love to hear your thoughts.

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mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 9:49 AM

I don't see a shortage in a denominational perspective as an issue. The main thing is still the main thing from an evangelical focus. Logos seems to have that more than covered. Practically everyone has found something to put on a wishlist for Logos to offer and suggestions are always welcome.

FWIW, we've recently gotten some works by Stanley Horton and that's great and much appreciated. I'm working on Acts right now and it's a real blessing!

 

 

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 10:05 AM

I am not aware of any major commentary series from a Charismatic/Pentecostal perspective.

I can only think of :

1) The Full Life Bible commentary To The New Testament edited by French L. Arrington & Roger Stronstad

2) The Pentecostal Commentary, which I believe only 3 or 4 volumes have been published.

What other Charismatic/Pentecostal commentaries are you referring to?

BTW see the Pentecostal Collection (5 vols.) here http://www.logos.com/product/15704/pentecostal-collection

 

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Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 10:26 AM

I don’t think the issue is prejudice, but trying to get resources that can appeal to the largest range of customers. It’s taken years to get works from those who come from the tradition of the Radical Reformation (this week we will finally get an Anabaptist and Mennonite collection). I think it will take time, but you will see more Charismatic/Pentecostal works. Part of the problem could be with getting permission from the publisher. Do other Bible software companies have a lot of Charismatic/Pentecostal resources…this might indicate the disposition of the publishers in granting permission for digital editions.

While its not a commentary, study Bibles function in a similar way. You might check out the New Spirit Filled Life Bible it could be helpful to you. A second option is if you can find resources (especially Public Domain works) you could create Personal Book versions for your library.

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 10:27 AM

John T Reagan:
I installed L4 Basic a few weeks ago and am still getting used to the new interface/conventions.  I went looking for a commentary coming from a Charismatic/Pentecostal viewpoint.  I came up dry and I'm wondering why.  (No rhyme intended.  :>)  Seems to me that some of this kind of work should be included in the Basic package. 

Not sure what the "Basic" package is.  What is the name of your base package?  Bible Study library?

You'll have to supplement your library with additional resources to get good commentaries (unless you buy a higher end library, like Scholars Gold).  Ted has identified some charismatic ones in the previous post.

Here is a list of Logos resources identified as "Pentecostal":

http://www.logos.com/products/search?Status=Live&Christian+Group=Pentecostal&start=0&sort=newest&pageSize=60

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 39
John T Reagan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 11:08 AM

"Bible Study Library" rather than "Basic Edition".  Sorry for the confusion.

Posts 39
John T Reagan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 11:47 AM

Ted Hans:
What other Charismatic/Pentecostal commentaries are you referring to?


Actually, the reason for my search is to find some commentaries like that.  A Google search turned up a few.  I have Intervarsity's Ancient Christian Commentary on my bookshelves along with McGee's Through the Bible Commentary.  Of course, neither of those is from the Charismatic/Pentecostal viewpoint.  I pulled up a couple of classic commentaries on Logos this morning and found myself, as usual, wading through cessasionist assumptions.  When I type "Charismatic" or "Pentecostal" into the Library window's search field, the screen goes blank.  I purchased the Bible Study Library package when I upgraded to Logos 4, so maybe some resources just aren't available in my package?  Still, you'd think something from the Spirit-filled perspective would be included in it.

I checked out your link and Horton's collection looks great.  It's a good start and hopefully I can fit it into my budget someday.

Posts 824
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 12:24 PM

I'm not aware that there is actually a commentary series from a Charismatic/Pentecostal viewpoint, but any commentary by Gordon Fee, for instance, is written from a Pentecostal standpoint (as well as being robustly scholarly).  Unfortunately, several of his commentaries are in series where you have to buy the entire set (NICNT), The link earlier takes you to the volumes of his that are available in Logos.  

I don't think there is an anti-charismatic/Pentecostal bias: I think the issue is probably what has the largest market, and you will find requests for more specific resources for Catholics, Mennonites/Anabaptists, Pentecostals/charismatics, SDAs and others elsewhere in these forums.Logos has probably produced most of the works for which there is a large market (in North America, at least - look at the number of conservative dispensationalist resources available) and is now getting around to some of the resources for which there is less demand, but which others would love to have in their libraries.  

The best thing is probably to add your recommendation to those in the "Suggestions" forum (as I have done) to demonstrate to the relevant people that there really is demand for these resources.  


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Posts 451
Dave Moser | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 1:17 PM

John T Reagan:
I love some of the classic commentaries and am grateful to have them available through Logos, but am tired of having to wade around the cessationist assumptions most of them make.

Your search, especially among "classic" commentaries, might be primarily a historical quest, not a business problem:

1. As a matter of history (not arguing doctrine here), charismatic influence in the church is largely a 20th century phenomenon. As such, "classic" commentaries aren't going to mention it much. I'm using the word "classic" here to simply mean old. Logos uses it similarly in it's "classic" commentaries bundles - all of which are public domain resources and are pre-1923.

2. The English-speaking church has been and largely is cessasionist. Logos provides primarily English resources. Therefore, most Logos resources are going to be from a cessasionist vantage point.

3. As previously noted, what resources are you expecting to find? Even in the 20th and 21st centuries, there aren't exactly a lot of commentaries written from charismatic perspectives. There are lots of devotional works from that perspective but that isn't really Logos' function.

Posts 2736
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 1:47 PM

John T Reagan:
When I type "Charismatic" or "Pentecostal" into the Library window's search field, the screen goes blank.

John, when I tried your method and typed "Pentecostal" to my library it gave me 12 titles.

When I typed "Baptist" it gave me 14 titles... (and it included some books on John the Baptist) Big Smile

Most commentaries do not have that description in the title. You have to go by author names, since Pentecostal authors have heir commentaries included in the more general evangelical commentary series. (Gordon Fee, Michael Brown etc.)

Other thing we can do is to write suggestion of some commentaries you know about. We have seen some of the suggested by us Pentecostal works here in the forums coming to the pre-pub quite soon.

Bohuslav

Posts 127
Robert I | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 2:04 PM

Dave:

1. As a matter of history (not arguing doctrine here), charismatic influence in the church is largely a 20th century phenomenon. As such, "classic" commentaries aren't going to mention it much. I'm using the word "classic" here to simply mean old. Logos uses it similarly in it's "classic" commentaries bundles - all of which are public domain resources and are pre-1923.

I would respectfully disagree and believe the Anabaptist and other movements throughout history and even in the Catholic Church and before Calvin, Zwingli, and Luther would differ.  Also, the several Great Awakenings would contend with this.  If you are referring to a perspective or view of the 'Charismatic' as observed on TV or depicted negatively, then I might be inclined to agree. 

I will concede that it certainly has not been a main theme, but Dr. John White's book, "When the Spirit Comes With Power," notes some historical accounts that might content with this.

Dave:

2. The English-speaking church has been and largely is cessasionist. Logos provides primarily English resources. Therefore, most Logos resources are going to be from a cessasionist vantage point.

Again, I would disagree and not just from a charismatic, non-denominational, Pentecostal, or Bible church view point.  The collegiate movement, Passion, is a big indicator of the non-cessationists viewpoints.  J. I. Packer's definition of Third Wavers is another example.  Though I respect and admire folks like John McArther and Chuck Swindoll, I disagree with them (as does Chuck Swindoll's Pentecostal brother).  Charles Stanley's son, Andy Stanley, falls into the neo-baptist (my term... no reference to anything historical at all) view and openness to non-cessation of the gifts.  Many of my professors have taken a non-cessationsist view point thanks to the excellent scholarship of Gordon Fee.

Dave:

3. As previously noted, what resources are you expecting to find? Even in the 20th and 21st centuries, there aren't exactly a lot of commentaries written from charismatic perspectives. There are lots of devotional works from that perspective but that isn't really Logos' function.

Again, the editor in chief of what is considered the most scholarly work, NICOT and NICNT is edited by Gordon Fee and he wrote 2 of the works (1st Corinthians and 1st and 2nd Thessalonians).  I only mention this to note that there is some good scholarship out there and it is worth noting.  Dispensationalism (if that is your definition of cessationism) is more modern phenomenon,  The Amillennialismistic view point has been more historical.  I say all this to point out that I do not think this necessarily true in humble opinion.  Let's not forget the Church of Christ was founded by Holy Shakers and Holy Laughter well before the 20th century.  :-)

Remaining in Him (1 John 2:28), Robert

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 2:10 PM

Robert Iversen:
I would respectfully disagree and believe the Anabaptist and other movements throughout history and even in the Catholic Church and before Calvin, Zwingli, and Luther would differ. 

Yes

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P A | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 2:12 PM

Wayne Grudem is a non cessationist! ESV study Bible editor.

The ESV study bible is not hostile to pentecostal/charismatic views.

 

Paul

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Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 2:19 PM

Todd Phillips:

Nice link!  You guys with the stars have all the inside info.  

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

Posts 39
John T Reagan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 3:38 PM

Thanks, everyone!  I have a little more to work with now.  And....I think I owe Logos an apology.  Seems like the problem is more a matter of availability than predjudice.  Sorry!

I'm quite interested in Gordon Fee's works now that some of you recommended him.  Unfortunately my Logos package doesn't have any of his writings.

Posts 451
Dave Moser | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 6 2012 4:10 PM

[Edit] I'd rather bow out...

Posts 127
Robert I | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 7 2012 6:12 AM

Dave:

[Edit] I'd rather bow out...

Understood.  I do apologize if I gave any appearance of being confrontational and divisive.  I really enjoyed your remarks and thought they were interesting and thought provoking conversation.  We can certainly agree to disagree... hey if Gordon Fee and John Stuart can work together as one in Christ, in agreement on the essentials, and yet allowing grace to pervade the nonessentials, then we can agree on the Absolute Truth, namely Christ.  Smile  Jesus is Lord, grace is absolute, forgiveness is needed by all, He died and rose again, He is returning for His bride, and the Word of God is divine revelation for a life that glorifies God!

As [EDITED HERE to correct the citation... Geeked ] Rupertus Meldenius said, "In essentials unity, in nonessentials grace, but in all things love."  May His love and affection always be the motive and power behind my study of him and my Gospel proclamation of that His Kingdom has come in Christ and will be fully revealed in due time.  Blessings and thanks, again!

Remaining in Him (1 John 2:28), Robert

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Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 7 2012 6:36 AM

Robert Iversen:

As St. Augustine said, "In essentials unity, in nonessentials grace, but in all things love." 

 

One of the joys of Logos is that I can state with some confidence (which will probably prove to be misplaced) that there is no evidence that Augustine ever said this.

 

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 7 2012 6:50 AM

Mike Pettit:
One of the joys of Logos is that I can state with some confidence (which will probably prove to be misplaced) that there is no evidence that Augustine ever said this.

The "History of the Christian Church" would agree with you (logosres:schaff;art=v7.h108.a1;off=353)!

"On the Origin of the Sentence: “In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis (or, dubiis) libertas, in utrisque (or, omnibus) caritas.”

This famous motto of Christian Irenics, which I have slightly modified in the text, is often falsely attributed to St. Augustin (whose creed would not allow it, though his heart might have approved of it), but is of much later origin. It appears for the first time in Germany, A.D. 1627 and 1628, among peaceful divines of the Lutheran and German Reformed churches, and found a hearty welcome among moderate divines in England.

The authorship has recently been traced to RUPERTUS MELDENIUS, an otherwise unknown divine, and author of a remarkable tract in which the sentence first occurs."

Philip Schaff and David Schley Schaff, History of the Christian Church (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).

Posts 127
Robert I | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 7 2012 7:22 AM

Uhm... okay, but did you at least see the point in the post?  Might you be so closely looking at the tree that you might have missed the forest here.  Just wondering. It reminds me of the story that Charles Stanley told in the his book, "Winning the War Within," but I digress.  Hmm

On a side note, interesting on the origins and as Rupertus Meldenius said.... In essentials unity, in nonessentials grace, but in all things charity or love.

Remaining in Him (1 John 2:28), Robert

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