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Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jun 13 2012 2:41 AM

I suggest that these commands be modified to allow for more things to be undone and redone.  For instance, if I close a tab by accident and decide I want it back, I have to waste time typing in the name of the resource in the command box to summon it again because the undo command won't reopen a deleted tab.  This can be especially troublesome with unfamiliar resources that I may not remember the name of for whatever reason.  Being able to do quick "command+z" and "command+shift+z" keyboard shortcuts (Mac user) would especially helpful.  And these seem like such simple, time saving features to have left out of the software.  I don't see any reason why features like these have not been better implemented.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 14 2012 3:34 AM

Robert Wazlavek:

I suggest that these commands be modified to allow for more things to be undone and redone.  For instance, if I close a tab by accident and decide I want it back, I have to waste time typing in the name of the resource in the command box to summon it again because the undo command won't reopen a deleted tab.  This can be especially troublesome with unfamiliar resources that I may not remember the name of for whatever reason.  Being able to do quick "command+z" and "command+shift+z" keyboard shortcuts (Mac user) would especially helpful.  And these seem like such simple, time saving features to have left out of the software.  I don't see any reason why features like these have not been better implemented.

Yes

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 15 2012 9:58 AM

I'm not in favour of this!

Maybe You think it would be practical to have a wide functionality for the Undo-command, but You can allready accomplish what You are asking for, in L4: the software automatically take "screendumps", just select one of those and You probably recover much of what was lost.

I understand how impossible it is to remember all titles You open, but that's a problem that only increases with the amount of titles You have. So it's only a problem for major collectors and seminarians who have gone far in buying books.

If You think about it: it would be advisable not to push Logos to produce version 5, because when it comes out, new titles wont be produced for 4, not to speak of the problems with Your computer: will Your setup last for the rest of Your life? If Logos totally discontinues all support for version 4 we won't be able to re-install EVERY e-book we've once purchased in case of hardware-failure.

So, I would advise to discover the functionalities that L4 allready has before You post new suggestions, and think of future proofing and hope that L5 won't come out within a couple of years, as that would, especially in the long run, ruin the investments people have made in version 4.

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Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 15 2012 12:27 PM

Unix:

I'm not in favour of this!

Maybe You think it would be practical to have a wide functionality for the Undo-command, but You can allready accomplish what You are asking for, in L4: the software automatically take "screendumps", just select one of those and You probably recover much of what was lost.

I understand how impossible it is to remember all titles You open, but that's a problem that only increases with the amount of titles You have. So it's only a problem for major collectors and seminarians who have gone far in buying books.

If You think about it: it would be advisable not to push Logos to produce version 5, because when it comes out, new titles wont be produced for 4, not to speak of the problems with Your computer: will Your setup last for the rest of Your life? If Logos totally discontinues all support for version 4 we won't be able to re-install EVERY e-book we've once purchased in case of hardware-failure.

So, I would advise to discover the functionalities that L4 allready has before You post new suggestions, and think of future proofing and hope that L5 won't come out within a couple of years, as that would, especially in the long run, ruin the investments people have made in version 4.

If by "screendumps" you mean snapshots, those are only taken occasionally and have nothing to do with the functionality of undoing an accidental tab close.  You use a snapshot to go back to something you had like an hour ago, or yesterday, or a week ago... not .5 seconds ago.

Logos is used largely by people in ministry who have accrued a large amount of titles, so this "only a problem for major collectors and seminarians" issue applies to like half of Logos users (I arbitrarily said half, but it is a large amount to be sure).  So that's an invalid point.  Besides, that's not true at all anyway.  You can have 500 or 5000 titles in your library, and in both cases, whether you remember them or not is based on your familiarity with the resource, not how many you have.  I have a layout saved where I have like 15 unfamiliar resources open.  I got them all from a search on a specific topic.  So if I accidentally close one, I have to redo the entire search and scroll through the page until I find it.  Either that or I have to completely reload the snapshot, which if I've deleted other items that I wanted to delete would bring them back up creating more hassle, etc, and then I'd have to refind my place in every resource I have open if I moved them while reading or whatever.  This is absurd and the Undo feature should already be able to solve this problem.  Also what you said shows terrible attitude.  You basically just said "screw you and your problem" to all the "major collectors and seminarians" and to me.  Adding better Undo and Redo functionality would benefit everyone and do little harm in an of itself as a single added software feature.

Logos software is free.  If Logos 5 is done like Logos 4 was, then users will be able to have them both as two separate applications.  If a person wants to buy new resources that won't work with Logos 4, they can get Logos 5 for free and use them with it.  But they could also use Logos 4 if they liked it better and wanted to keep it.  I don't know for sure how Logos backs up all of everyone's stuff.  But if I'm not mistaken, your library is stored in the Logos system/cloud.  If your computer dies, you will still be able to keep all your old items when you install Logos on your new computer.  Will you be able install the old software?  Maybe not.  But you shouldn't ever have a problem with losing resources.  But someone else can probably clarify this point.

There was no reason for You to make such arrogant/assuming/imposing comments like in your last section there.  For one, I may not be an expert user, but I know how to use Logos somewhat effectively.  I mean, at least I know what a "snapshot" is actually called.  So you don't have much place to tell me to "discover the functionalities of L4 before [making] new suggestions."  Secondly, I can post as many new suggestions as I want.  I have that right.  Third, I also have the right to and do hope Logos 5 comes out soon and it is an improvement to 4.  And fifth, I seriously doubt the coming out of Logos 5 would "ruin" anyone's investment that they've made in Logos 4.  Cliff notes: Don't pretend to look down on me and suggest I change all my thoughts about this because apparently by my suggestion I'm pushing for Logos to ruin people's investments.  This is ridiculous.  I don't even know why I've chosen to respond to your post.

 

Also, the biggest issues you just gave, the entire second half of your post, don't even have to do with the actual topic at hand, that is, the Undo and Redo features.  Please actually stay on topic.  If you want to argue the usefulness of the feature or whatever, by all means do.  But please refrain from rambling on about how Logos 5 is gonna kill the planet and all the whales are gonna die from losing Logos resources or whatever.  Thanks.

 

Advice for when speaking to people: don't have such a know-it-all and high horse attitude... and if you do... definitely don't actually speak that way to someone as you did to me with your post.  (This includes your capitalizing all uses of "you" and "your."  Maybe you always do this, I don't know.  But just reading your one post alone seems to suggest you speaking to me with a negative and condescending tone.  If this isn't the case, I apologize for my own negative tone in my post.)

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 15 2012 1:18 PM

Robert Wazlavek:
I mean, at least I know what a "snapshot" is actually called.

Robert, I agree Unix doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, but belittling a non-native speaker because he doesn't happen to know the correct English term? Really? If that isn't beneath you, it should be.

Robert Wazlavek:
I have a layout saved where I have like 15 unfamiliar resources open.  I got them all from a search on a specific topic.  So if I accidentally close one, I have to redo the entire search and scroll through the page until I find it.

Open History and you will find it much faster.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 15 2012 2:07 PM

I didn't bother to open up Logos, to see the correct term, that's all, so I used a universal term. Logos 4 opens so slowly.

fgh:
Robert Wazlavek:
I mean, at least I know what a "snapshot" is actually called.
Robert, I agree Unix doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, but belittling a non-native speaker because he doesn't happen to know the correct English term? Really? If that isn't beneath you, it should be.
Yeah I know You can have two versions of Logos on Your computer.

I understand that You people know better, but I wasn't trying to be rude, and yes I've capitalized You, Your and Yours in all languages I use, for years now, every time, no matter what the issue or to whom I'm writing.

I've tried to study programming, and I would think that the feature You are suggesting, calls for version 5. Smaller feature updates to version 4 without a release of version 5, would be desirable, IMO.

And if You are saying that memorizing 500 titles is actually hard, I'm surprised. I bought 2 packages + less than a handfull of separate items, which allready sums up to almost 500 titles, and like I've expressed it, I have no desire for such an Undo-functionality as You described. It's really easy to remember what I had open during the past hour.

If/when I feel that I have a lot to remember and can't bookmark everything immediately or have too little imagination or whatever at the moment to make notes or markings, I don't close tabs.

Having enough system RAM is an easy sollution. Just leave everything open. And NO I'm not trying to be smart here. And excuse my language, please, I'm not actually rambling, this is my natural language, some don't like my use of language and I can't do anything about that. Purhaps I would sound nicer in audible speech, I think it's that simple?

I'm rarely offended by someones use of written speech.

I'm simply more concerned about the future proofing. I have a base-package install DVD, but it contains only about 70% of the number of e-book items I have. Those outside of the DVD are really valuable to me and carefully picked. Of course the content of the DVD is valuable too. But I just have a hard time seeing why I should loose ANYTHING.

The later L5 is realeased, the more time I have for waiting for the prizes of good computers to fall. Then I stand a better chance to make a last install of L4 with all the e-books I've bought until then, on a computer more likely to last a long time. One example is for example that sometime many years from now, Microsoft will discontinue Windows 8, and I haven't even heard of the release-plans of MacOS 11 yet (someone who knows the Mac-world better can inform me). Will MacOS 11 be released before L5? I want to be able to compare a Windows based system and an Apple-system when I estimate which computer will have the longest lifetime. Especially with a Windows system, if it's discontinued, the harm from viruses increases. That's a major problem. Of course I could go with Mac, but they are more costly. So it's really a balance what hardware to choose!

I would say that many are building their e-books library and use the current version of Logos, namely 4, so if a really large part of them want to have everything collected in one software then there's a larger market for L4 than for L5. Only at the point when it doesn't matter at all to about 67% of the users whether support and releases for L4 will continue, the market for L5 becomes the biggest. My approximations.

I'm sure there are suggested features that people really want.

However, what I've seen is that Logos's biggest problem is that many customers never return after their initial buy. That means they still have the software they bought, but either don't need anything more, or more likely find that there's something they are not satisfied with with what they have, OR their initial buy was L3 and they feel betrayed allready when Logos reworked everything to L4. L4 is better than L3, so what I'm saying is that the likeliness of the latter option increases during the time between releases of new major versions.

My point is that it's more likely now, that people are satisfied with the functionality of L4, than it was years ago with L3, and the need for a new major version (L5) is less urgent now.

When I said a few rows ago "or more likely find that there's something they are not satisfied with with what they have" I was thinking of the offering, what titles are available. The biggest cost, or at least the biggest financial risk, for Logos, is probably the digitalizing of items. There are competing systems, such as Amazon Kindle, iPieta, and You name it. The longer L4 exists as a supported software with new releases, the longer there will be e-books newly releazed to L4 - then earlier customers who have only made an initial purchase so far, can keep looking for what they want to be issued in Logos, without any hazzle. This is obvious, and not something I'm pointing out to belittle You. But collectors and seminarians will also benefit from that. Probably the least common denominator is how Logos issues new titles ...

... Everyone wants something that doesn't exist (yet?): new features, or titles to be newly released in Logos. So the best sollution to make most people happy, is to release minor functionality and compability (to Windows 8 if needed and MacOS 11 if needed) updates to the existing version: L4. And to keep issuing e-books to L4.

After all, L4 is a costly system. For example, indvividual titles seem to be very expensive most of the time. I'm sure the price is the major reason to why customers who have only made an initial buy and nothing else, never return to make a new purchase.

I'm also saying, that probably most people want maximal content for their money, and that they can keep their e-books their whole lifetime or at least many years. (Just like with printed matter, that's just 1 comparison.) The probable sollution is that Logos gets better at predicting what TITLES are worth digitalizing, so that more people find what they want and so that more customers can be served. So Logos need to hire more and better librarians for example, and others with expertise, and be more and more known for being a trustworthy company where it's safe to spend $. If they accomplish that, they become more profitable and can cut the prices. By "where it's safe to spend $" I also mean that You should be able to trust that Logos has hired experts who can tell what titles are GOOD - so that they do some of the work for You - selecting between all books there is, digital (for example public domain, or those allready existing in L4) or yet to be digitalized, and digitalize the best of the best.

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48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 11

Posts 5632
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 15 2012 2:35 PM

Robert Wazlavek:
For instance, if I close a tab by accident and decide I want it back, I have to waste time typing in the name of the resource in the command box to summon it again because the undo command won't reopen a deleted tab.

I agree.  An "Undo Close Tab" option would be very helpful. The Firefox browser has the capability in the right-click tab menu and as a keyboard shortcut (Ctrl+Shift+T). Something similar would be nice in Logos.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 15 2012 6:06 PM

 

fgh:

Robert, I agree Unix doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, but belittling a non-native speaker because he doesn't happen to know the correct English term? Really? If that isn't beneath you, it should be.

Open History and you will find it much faster.

It has nothing to do with whether or not English is his native language unless he uses Logos in another language.  And the point wasn't a belittlement.  I was making a logical argument.  If he uses Logos in English and doesn't even know what a snapshot is called (or how to use the feature like I pointed out in my post), then why is he telling me to effectively "learn how to use Logos before making suggestions?"  I assumed he used Logos in English in which case he could have at least easily looked it up.  What I quoted from him below seems to point to the fact that he does use Logos in English, therefore there wouldn't be a reason for him not to know the term other than not knowing Logos well enough himself (if he used Logos in another language, maybe snapshot is called something else is my point in him using English Logos).  Besides, he seemed to speak good enough English to me.  I had no idea it wasn't his native language.  I was just presenting evidence for my argument.

Again, if I don't know the name of the resource, I have no idea what to bring up.  Figuring out which one it is in History could take just as long as doing a search if I end up having to click everything in the list just to find the right one.  Ultimately, it would just be much easier if Undo could quickly fix the problem.  As is, Undo and Redo have little to no functionality in anything other than when you're typing or editing something like in Clippings or Notes, which is useful at least, but they should be able to do more.

Unix:

I didn't bother to open up Logos, to see the correct term, that's all, so I used a universal term. Logos 4 opens so slowly.

I'm glad your English is reflective of where you're from.  Online it's hard to tell whether or not someone simply speaks different because they are from somewhere else, or because they're just a kid who is too lazy to proofread their posts or whatever like that.  Given your capitalizing of "You" and other quirks in your posts are due to your global position, I'd be glad not to read a tone into them.

 

Making the Undo and Redo better seem like simple adjustments that could be made without Logos 5 to me.  But then again, I don't know anything about programming, whereas you say you do.  So I could easily be wrong.

No, I'm not saying learning 500 titles is difficult.  What I'm saying is when you don't know the titles for whatever reason (like you're just starting out with Logos and bought a lot of new things with your base package, etc), it is a hassle to have to work around a lack of being able to undo a tab delete.  Seems like a simple feature that should already be there to me.

I understand the point of not closing tabs.  However, with my set up, I have all my study resources in one panel, and all the others like Search, Clippings, etc, in another panel.  But I don't like to keep many panels open so I can have more functional reading space.  This means I have a lot of tabs in one panel when I'm studying in this manner (I use different methods depending on what I'm studying).  So in this way, I'll do a search, and bring up a number of titles on a subject, then I'll read some of each to see if they are pertinent to what I want.  If they are not, I delete them so they aren't in the way.  And I didn't get Logos very long ago, so I don't know most of the titles.  I just brought them up from a search.  Ultimately, I shouldn't have to figure out a workaround for a lack of functional Undo and Redo features.  That's the issue.

I have plenty of RAM.  But I simply don't want to leave every tab I bring up open.  If I know I don't need it, I want to delete it.  And like I said, I shouldn't have to figure out a workaround for this whether that be leaving tabs open or using something like History or previous snapshot Layouts.  They should have made this possible to begin with.  Why it's left out, I don't know.

 

I didn't thoroughly read everything else you said, because I don't have the time.  But I skimmed it, and it seems like I responded to what was pertinent to the Undo and Redo feature.  Sorry I can't respond to everything, but my post would be twice or more as long if I did.  So I just can't.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 16 2012 11:47 AM

Robert Wazlavek:
Ultimately, it would just be much easier if Undo could quickly fix the problem.

I agree. I wasn't opposing it, just suggesting a faster workaround for now.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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